Waves WLM Loudness Meter

[louteti]

Originally Posted by adogg4629

Anybody test this against the LM100? This would be a bargain if I could use it to pass Discovery specs.

Aaron

Yeah, I've tested it against LM-100 & Dolby Media Meter. It will def work for discovery (or any network) specs. And that little fine scale reading is actually awesome.

[Airon]

They certainly seem to cover all bases.

My personal preference however is to just look at a simple meter from time to time. This isn't too bad, but may be too small.

The aspect about the NuGen meter I truly like(just demo'ed the updated VisLM 1.5.1) is that I can freely change multiple colours to signfy different ranges, and I can change the meters granularity (0.5 units spacing for example).

The numbers only really help you when you're checking the overall loudness of your program, which for me always happens at the end of a mix.

My first impression is that it's nice they covered all bases, but it's probably not the plugin for me, but for many others.

In the interim I'm using the TB Loudness meter in the VST hosts I use to get used to what the result of loudness normalization is, plus a commandline utility I use to scan any clip from within my preferred VST host, Reaper.

WLM would be overkill for these tasks and wouldn't work for VST hosts since it has no Audiosuite-like capability.

Does WLM have an Audiosuite component that can log stuff as well ?

NuGen VisLM does, so I'd wager it does.

[kirk95]

Originally Posted by macmurphy

$299? sheesh!

yikes...

[grooveminister]

Originally Posted by BlackBackDrop

Plus I been really studying this new standard, trying to find ways to make things seem louder and I got some cool technqiues figured out.

That was so predictable:
The moment the first serious approach against loudness insanity hits the scene people start trying to make it sound louder again - now inside of these specs.
I guess the madness will never end...

At least we don´t have to **** up any single transient to do that, so:
No offense to you BlackBackDrop, I totally understand: The clients want that...

[adogg4629]

Originally Posted by louteti

Yeah, I've tested it against LM-100 & Dolby Media Meter. It will def work for discovery (or any network) specs. And that little fine scale reading is actually awesome.

Thanks. Looks like I'm going to do a test against an LM100 and then shell out a few hundred bucks for this. Sweet.

[dariva]

Originally Posted by Moofie

The WLM will be interesting as it appears to be one of the few to offer a transport controlled metering option i.e. "Follow Transport" in that the LU read-out, resets itself during stop/start. I find many of the current batch of software app loudness tools require a lengthy sample period or a manual reset via the GUI which is tiresome when mixing at speed.

The TB EBU Loudness has the sync mode too, and it sure is pretty convenient...

[JonMiller]

Originally Posted by Tube World

That is the standard price on any UAD plug in....or more, but for just a meter I agree. $150 sounds better

Pricing software and service is extremely difficult. You have to look at Market, how many are you going to sell.

Waves would have to sell twice as many at $150 then at $300 dollars to equal the same amount of money.

Also you need to look at the amount of development time involved. Then of course any expenses that are acquired during development(Patients, AVID Approval etc)

To put it in perspective, I am a software consultant / contractor by day and traveling musicians in between and I bill at $165-180 dollars per hour.

[nucelar]

Originally Posted by dariva

The TB EBU Loudness has the sync mode too, and it sure is pretty convenient...

Hi,
I don't quite understand the convenience of "follow transport". How does it help in your workflow? In my case, during the mixing, I'm not averaging, just looking at the short-term meters. I only take the final average (offline) when the programme is finished.

Cheers

[kirk95]

This is software? Service is online self serve.

Wanna bet the margins for Waves plugs is over 80%? Cost of development continues to go down just like in music production....

That's why the door is completely wide open for One-Man/Small Developer companies. They can make money at much lower margins and create superior software. Case and point: ValhallaDSP

This is why I never use any of Waves' products. The pricing is ridiculous...

To put it in perspective I'm a former software CEO... which qualifies me for nothing... LOL

Originally Posted by JonMiller

Pricing software and service is extremely difficult. You have to look at Market, how many are you going to sell.

Waves would have to sell twice as many at $150 then at $300 dollars to equal the same amount of money.

Also you need to look at the amount of development time involved. Then of course any expenses that are acquired during development(Patients, AVID Approval etc)

To put it in perspective, I am a software consultant / contractor by day and traveling musicians in between and I bill at $165-180 dollars per hour.

[adogg4629]

Just ran a rather unscientific test with the WLM, LM100 and Nugen VisLM H on an edited but not mixed show (so there where a few instances of over modulation in some SOTs intended to be played low but here unmixed. Everything went through an L2 on the master bus brick walled at -10 with a threshold of -8. Since the VisLM-H didn't seem to have an LeqA reading (or we couldn't figure out how to bring it up which is quite possible) it was really hard to judge it against the LM100. The responsiveness was great, but the interface was sort of wonky (couldn't key in values-we just had to place the mouse over them, click and scroll up and down to get most of them to change). There was a "Discovery NTSC preset (which we used) but again, couldn't tell if we were getting a true LeqA reading. If we were, it was far off the mark in both short term and infinite from the LM100.

The WLM was much closer to the mark. It doesn't read Timecode (which is a bummer-but the Nugen didn't either) but if you go into automation mode there is a hidden feature. You can automate the "overs" and "unders", and then write that automation when printing your mix. This really eliminates the need for a TC readout because you can see in your session where you are going to have to address portions of the mix. There is a Discovery HD and SD preset (but they looked and acted pretty much the same as far as we can tell in stereo (we didn't do a test in 5.1).

While looking at both the LM100 and WLM in the short term, they were pretty dead on with one another for about 90% of the time. The WLM seemed to freak out more during portions os the show with VO, bad library music and windy "NAT" sound playing at the same time. But it seemed to deal with (at least on our VERY unscientific test) the portions where the over modulated SOTs were hitting hard. The LM100 freaked out on those same over modulated bits, but handled the VO fine. In the end the infinite readings were identical, and the short term was close enough.

There were a bunch of other nifty features on the WLM, like a comforting check mark that appeared in the short term readout whenever you hit your target number. Also, the meter itself would go from blue when you were under, white when you were in the right ball park and red when you were over (think of it as the French flag of meters). I may pull the trigger and get this for some Discovery mixes to really see how "real world" it is.


Hope that helps

Aaron

[adogg4629]

Originally Posted by Airon

They certainly seem to cover all bases.

WLM would be overkill for these tasks and wouldn't work for VST hosts since it has no Audiosuite-like capability.

Does WLM have an Audiosuite component that can log stuff as well ?

NuGen VisLM does, so I'd wager it does.

The WLM has audio suite logging. In the export, just select offline. Hope that helps.

[daez]

I just dont understand why a metering plugin would cost more than there other offerings. Is this really more costly to create than api and ssl plugs. The dorrough meters are also expensive for any plugin, let alone one that just shows measurements.

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by daez

I just dont understand why a metering plugin would cost more than there other offerings. Is this really more costly to create than api and ssl plugs. The dorrough meters are also expensive for any plugin, let alone one that just shows measurements.

It has nothing to do with comparative cost to their own stuff, it has to with what the competition costs and what the target market (post facilities, mainly) will pay.

[superwack]

People seem to be missing the point that the WLM is for POST production - it is by far the cheapest plugin I've seen that comes close to the Dolby LM100 Hardware Meter (which costs $3,200) - even Dolby's Plugin - The Dolby media meter 2 - is $795!!!!

For music there are many, many, many cheap/free meters that work perfectly fine but when you have to hit certain broadcast/dialog specs you need something specialized.

[adogg4629]

Originally Posted by superwack

People seem to be missing the point that the WLM is for POST production - it is by far the cheapest plugin I've seen that comes close to the Dolby LM100 Hardware Meter (which costs $3,200) - even Dolby's Plugin - The Dolby media meter 2 - is $795!!!!

For music there are many, many, many cheap/free meters that work perfectly fine but when you have to hit certain broadcast/dialog specs you need something specialized.

I echo this. Honestly, this is the most inexpensive Leq(a) meter on the market that I've found, by a lot. And not only does it do a good Leq(a), it looks like it may handle dialnorm good enough to pass QC when delivering to networks (They all use the LM100 which is about $3200).

[BlackBackDrop]

Originally Posted by grooveminister

That was so predictable:
The moment the first serious approach against loudness insanity hits the scene people start trying to make it sound louder again - now inside of these specs.
I guess the madness will never end...

At least we don´t have to **** up any single transient to do that, so:
No offense to you BlackBackDrop, I totally understand: The clients want that...

Sorry!

[grooveminister]

@BlackBackDrop:
I wasn´t too serious when I wrote that comment, because it´s not that you can make things twice as loud inside the EBU specs.
So I have to apologize for my comment!

Just curious: How much did you gain during tweaking?
1dB? (That would of course be a difference!)

[Duardo]

And not only does it do a good Leq(a), it looks like it may handle dialnorm good enough to pass QC when delivering to networks (They all use the LM100 which is about $3200).

Yeah, according to my friends who are more post-oriented than I am, this is kind of a big deal. Pretty much makes it a no-brainer for them.

[Studiofreq]

Hi all,

I just purchased WLM a few days ago.

I create sound design, original score and 5.1 mix for 3D and 4D motion ride film, promos, trailers etc for motion simulator theaters (ie: XD theater) and 3D pay-per-view TV. Everything I deliver has to be within the specs which the WLM was built specifically to accommodate.

I've spent a lot of time over the past few days speaking to Waves support to make sure it really does what it says it does. Bottom line is, it does. As was already mentioned, if your career depends on being able to deliver audio to spec, WLM really is a no-brainer and is a cost of doing business. Much less cost than the Dolby LM100 which is not as feature rich as the WLM. The WLM has the distinct advantage of living in software. WLM has the long awaited "follow transport", it has logging and great presets for various Discovery spec (HD, NSTC & Pal, film trailer, Dial Norm. You can define your own presets and allows for Custom Pre Filtering so you can limit the frequency of the content you are metering which is great if you deliver content for devices that use smaller speakers, (ie: laptops, tablets, phones, hand-held gaming devices etc).

Recent changes in required specs from EBU, ITU-R, ATSC, require average Loundness Level and True Peak for TV broadcast to be consistent so consumers don't have to change volume from show to show or during commercials etc, (as opposed to only focusing on how close we are to distortion level as it relates to Full Scale (dBFS). Because of these new standards, I predict we will eventually see this type of metering become standard and included in the better DAWs. But for now as it is such new territory, kudos to Waves for stepping up and being the leader. If you have the Mercury bundle, it is a free upgrade. All others, it is a paid plug in to cover development cost. If you don't have to deliver content for broadcast etc, you can hold off for now. If you have to deliver content for broadcast, it's not if you need Loudness metering, it's simply a choice of which one is most cost effective and offers the flexibility you benefit most from. (IMHO)

PS, knowing your actual dial norm number (which the WLM gives you) allows you to create ac3 audio for DVD in a way that prevents the decoder from making false adjustments on play back which negatively affect your audio quality.

Alexander

[Studiofreq]

Originally Posted by nucelar

Hi,
I don't quite understand the convenience of "follow transport". How does it help in your workflow? In my case, during the mixing, I'm not averaging, just looking at the short-term meters. I only take the final average (offline) when the programme is finished.

Cheers

In order for a film trailer (for example) to receive certification granting permission to be broadcast, engineers have had to follow strict guidelines which specify how soon they had to start the metering process once the trailer audio began and how soon to press stop once the audio ended. Follow transport eliminates the need for the engineer to have to worry about that anymore (WLM syncs the metering with the DAWs transport control). You press play on the DAW and the metering process begins...and is smart enough in the WLM to recognize when the audio and started and stopped. If you're using off-line logging, follow-transport won't be a feature you'll have to worry about. If you ever meter in real-time, it will be very useful for you and you'll be happy it's there. It's been a long time coming.

I copied a relevant part of the strict start/stop procedure requirements directly from the TASA Standard pdf for you:

1.4.5 MEASUREMENT INTERVAL
The length of the measurement in time shall correspond + 3 seconds to
the length of the audio program material. In practice, the start button of
the measuring device shall be pushed within 3 seconds of the first audio
heard by the audience. The stop button shall be pushed within 3 seconds
of the final audio heard by the audience. The measurement does not stop
during any silences within the body of the trailer. The measurement does
not start with the academy leader, the green card or any other visual or
footage reference; the only section to be measured for this standard is the
section between the 1st audio heard, plus or minus 3 seconds, and the
final audio heard, plus or minus 3 seconds.

Any material measured using these procedures with a duration of 30
seconds or less shall be measured to within + 1 second of the length of
the program. In other words, the start button of the measuring device shall
be pushed within 1 second of the first audio, and the stop button shall be
pushed within 1 second of the final audio.

[nucelar]

Originally Posted by Studiofreq

In order for a film trailer (for example) to receive certification granting permission to be broadcast, engineers have had to follow strict guidelines which specify how soon they had to start the metering process once the trailer audio began and how soon to press stop once the audio ended. Follow transport eliminates the need for the engineer to have to worry about that anymore (WLM syncs the metering with the DAWs transport control). You press play on the DAW and the metering process begins...and is smart enough in the WLM to recognize when the audio and started and stopped. If you're using off-line logging, follow-transport won't be a feature you'll have to worry about. If you ever meter in real-time, it will be very useful for you and you'll be happy it's there. It's been a long time coming.

OK, I'm not familiar with the production of film trailer, that's an application certainly.

I just think that the "follow transport" could be misleading in a non-linear editing environment. To an inexperienced mixer it may give the false impression that you just set it to "follow transport", begin mixing and at the end of the session the reading is your average loudness for the programme.
Cheers

[SkyBarstow]

What about v-meters from VSonics | VMeters ?
It apparently does the same!
69 euros!!

[DaveE]

Just got an email that this was added to the Diamond bundle.

[superwack]

Originally Posted by DaveE

Just got an email that this was added to the Diamond bundle.

I saw that too but I downloaded the latest Diamond through the WOLI installer thing - no WLM, then I Installed the individual WLM plug ... Pro Tools says it's not authorized!

EDIT: Duh - had to update my Waves account to 8.0.1!