SAE Custom Series 75 : try 2
 

this time without bs'in each other about missing emails.

discuss the product, good or bad.

that's the start from the first try:

Emails
 

hi
i love the idea of this product, but i would be a bit wary of the company going on my experience of them
steve

George, good call on the resart. I've had nothing but great conversations and email exchanges with Neve AU and Vintage King. We've seen it, touched it and heard it (albeit limited). Done all the work I can do to evaluate it... I can't add any more until mine arrives late feb. will happily update then.

Well Done Jono
 

HI Jono
you bought one? well done mate congrats, i cant wait to read how it works for you,
which config did you order?
steve

Yes. 32 ch, producers panel, both compressors.

Jono, did you discuss with them about retro-fitting the fader automation when it comes out?
Any more info on it that you might know that's not been mentioned yet?

Jono,

Any idea of the weight of the 32 ch?

Dbjp - we talked about fader automation, but for my purposes it wasn't near the top of my list of priorities. I think it will come, but if it doesn't, I really am not that concerned.

The flexibility in sound WAS at the top of my list. After looking at all the options, I was going down a path where I was literally a week away from ordering a 16ch 1608 and cobbling other sidecar(s) into my environment. Then this thing appeared. The API/sidecar solution would have been complex, and would have involved a maintenance challenge (for the sidecar(s)) and patching scenarios that I really didn't like, had far less functionality that this console...and fader automation wouldn't have been a part of that solution either. To me, in my environment - automating faders is nice - but I can automate ITB a bit; recalling eq, compression, routing etc is a far more difficult problem - and I'm kinda f*cked in that regard no matter which option I chose. So live with it and move on. I could have gone the SSL route - but it would be a lot of dough for a robust fully-recallable solution and the sound-flexibility thing (a priority for me) would not have been there. And unlike a lot of GS members, I don't have the constant pressure to deal with lots of clients - mine is a pretty low-volume operation.

I come originally from a hi-tech background and my world was full of people innovating to deliver quality product at much lower costs relative to historical offerings - I view these guys as doing exactly that. A pretty cool endeavor assuming they pull it off. So I rolled the dice on a new product (in as educated way as I could conjure) given my preferences - and this is what I came up with. I may be swinging from my belt in the shower a year from now - but I really don't think so (fu_ck, I hope not). I'm sure this console isn't right for everyone - but it conceptually hit the mark for me. We will see.

Flea - don't know what it weighs - not an issue for my purposes. Ground floor environment...roll her in...done deal. it's a couple grand +/- to ship/import from AU if memory is correct.

j

Thanks Jono.
Yeah, automation wouldn't be a priority for me either but I'd probably be interested in getting 8 channels worth, just for the sake of flexibility, provided the sound quality remained the same (or close).

Was the difference between the summing formats very obvious or subtle?
Same question goes for the transformer and transformerless output.
Thanks.

I didnt experiment w xfrmrless OP...but retro summing was quite audible. Ive got sessions that will be starting as soon the the board arrives - it would be simple to print a mix of each from the same source tracks...maybe i'll post em if people are interested.

People are interested.kfhkh



peachh

Definitely!

Question regarding the automation. Is this a software (cpu) update or would one have to replace the fader packs? Any idea of ballpark figure?

Of course.
But not as early adopter, I'll wait 5-7 years for this console to fully establish itself.
Since than, plenty of great options to play with and second hand market is well on buyer side presently.

Sorry mate, I didn't dig too deeply on the fader automation because it's not a big deal to me. I'm pretty sure it would involve replacing the fader modules (don't know if they would take one's current faders in 'trade' or not) as there is no motorized componentry in there now. My sense is that they really can't answer any detailed questions as of yet on automation - they seem to know conceptually how they are going to do it, but no details yet. seem focused on getting the manufacturing process down, proper QA (which I liked because they're using software to test all the conditions), and delivering first units. I don't have any data on price - other than Bruce told me they would be priced attractively. Again - If automation were the priority for me now, I probably wouldn't have gone this route - or waited to see how it is implemented. Believe they're going to be implementing automation via Eucon.... j

I have been having a look at the Custom series 75 and noticed that it has 8 recallable scenes. Forgive my ignorance, but if there is no automation, then what is it used for?

All of the buttons are recallable in 8 different scenes. So you can save the whole console's button positions (eq in/outs, mutes, etc.) in a 'scene', lets say scene #1. Lets say this is the mixdown setup for song 'A'. Then you want to work on a different song (while say song 'A' is waiting for a bass OD next week). You save to scene #1 and then move onto mixing song 'B' which has a different setup.

When Bass man shows up a week later to OD bass on song 'A', you recall scene #1 and all your button positions for song 'A' are recalled. Of course none of the fader positions or knobs are recallable though (that is only really affordable on digital boards or a used SSL).

So, it's 'recall' not 'automation.
(this is what I expect from the description and Q/A's, seems just like a typical recall feature).

The board apparently has a ROM memory to store the scenes (only 8 different scenes). Perhaps (my wish!!) is that they work in button 'automation' into the upcoming moving fader automation package. Then you can automate buttons (Eq's, mutes, etc.) to turn on/off dynamically (during the playback of the song). I personally don't see how this is too hard to do since each button press is stored in the onboard processor already (what Bruce says in the vids on Vk's site), so they should really make use of that function in the upcoming automation thing.

At this point, it's not known if the scenes will even savable in the upcoming automation package or even a USB. Right now, those 8 scenes are only savable on the board itself, with no way to save it externally. And 8 scenes is really a small amount of scenes to be recallable, especially when you can't save it externally.

Seems such a useful feature is limited to only 8 scenes (for now at least). But since there is a diagnostic port for Neve to access button diagnosis (like how many times a certain button has been pressed), I have hope that this feature doesn't stay limited to the 8 recallable board scenes only.

(anyone correct me if I'm wronggooof)

Hey there... in video 1 on the Vintage King site, the guy giving the demo says that if you want to have your signal pass through the output transformer, then you route to the mix buss, but if you want the transformerless output, you use the direct output. He says this WHILE talking about routing channels out individually. To me that says... it is impossible to route all 32 channels through the output transformer and then to your multi-track machine. That would be a HUGE over-site imho. I see nothing anywhere about how many busses are available. If there are 32 record busses in ADDITION to the direct out, then this might make sense (though the demonstrator should have said output busses, not mix bus)... but I don't think that is the case. I am pretty sure if the console functions as explained on that video, you will only hear the output transformer when in mix mode, and routing through the mix buss. All outputs to "tape" would be transformer-less. Surely this is not truly how it is. That would be crazy!!

Also...I love the idea of combining the two mix buss types and allowing a choice between. However, for an inline console... it is NOT common (as the demonstrator said it was) to have the large faders be your "to tape" level, and your control room monitor level be on the "monitor pot". On every Neve Console since the 8100's and V desks, and ALL SSL consoles, it has always been customary to completely "flip" the path so that the "little fader" is the "to tape" level, and the "big fader" is the monitor level... though the standard path is maintained (pre >eq > output to recorder > recorder > tape return > monitor fader/pan > mix bus. This allows one to "mix" as recording, and GREATLY reduces cursing in the control room when one accidentally grabs a fader that controls level to tape during "THE" magic take. :|

JMTC of course... :) Any light that could be shed on this items would be much appreciated!

SAE Custom Series 75 : try 2
 

You are correct that the direct output is transformerless. However the "to tape" or post fader output is transformer. (the record path)

I will agree that the big fader being your level to tape and the small fader being the return is a little odd. But there is a flip function. I am sure most people out set up a recallable scene for tracking (which the faders are flipped and bus comps out) and a scene for mix (EQs in and comps in) or however you may like.

Really? What an ODD and redundant design! I wish they would post somewhere the exact arrangement of inputs and outputs on the desk. If what you say is correct, then there are duplicated outputs on each channel with the only difference being one is before the fader and one after. This seems an unnecessary extra expense if there is an electronically balanced insert point (which they say there is). That point could be used as a non transformer affected output. As you and they describe it... you have in the path the following outputs on each channel:

• Insert Out (pre fader/transformer)
• Direct Out (pre fader/transformer)
• Record Out (post fader/transformer)

Seems like it would have been a LOT less expensive just to make the transformer switchable (in/out). Plus, with the insert out and direct out, you no longer have an output fader, which eliminates the ability of making subtle character changes with the preamp gain and adjusting with the fader on those two outputs.

Im also curious if there truly are no record output busses. It's pretty common for me these days to commit to tones on the way in to keep track counts down. I have often combine multiple mics on guitars, etc... to one track. I guess there are 8 busses that could be used for that... but I like to use those to group track types.... drums, bass, guitars, etc... for monitoring in the control room.


Yes... but on all the big desks, you have to flip to different things to make this work. You have to flip the tape return and the input. That makes that signal path happen. If you don't have the ability to do that on this desk (like old 80 series neve desks), then you are stuck monitoring from the little pots... ugghhh...

Hey there Cryptic - regarding buss questions - have you checked all these block diagrams out? Custom Series 75 - Online Manual
Also - there's a little red arrow at the bottom of the block diagram page (maybe all the pages) - if you keep clicking it you get more information that I haven't seen online before - pinouts, etc. I may have just missed it previously.

I just noticed that they revised the input block diagram (on Nov 26th it seems). I had mentioned before that there was an 10468 input transformer before the direct out, not an output tranny. It seems they have now corrected this as the LO1166 output tranny is now in that spot.

http://www.customseries75.com/online..._block_1.0.pdf

According to the diagram (and Jono), the insert send is pre output tranny (LO1166) and also pre fader. The direct out is post fader, post LO1166 output tranny.

In the same input block Dia., it shows the fader swap would put the monitor 'knob' (this console has no little fader) in the path of and controlling the direct out level (and using the output tranny). What is not clear in the diagram is if the big fader, now being used to 'monitor' the recorder return, has access to the EQ. It doesn't appear so in the diagram (when you fader swap).

And it is only an 8 buss console, no 32 recording busses.

This is in direct opposition to what the designer says on the video on the vintage king website (video 1), where he states; 'If you want a cleaner output, without the transformer, you would use the direct out because it's before the output transformer'. :(

Yes I know. I brought this exact issue up in the previous thread (that is now closed).

Jono and his tech has talked to the Designer (same Bruce that is in the vid I believe) and confirmed the direct outs have the LO1166 tranny on them.

The revised input block diagram (pdf in my previous post), shows the LO1166 before the direct out.

So why does Bruce say they exact opposite in the video? I mean, that is like saying the car we designed is a 2wd when it's actually a 4wd! It's a bit concerning he got this wrong in the vid, I can only hope he was just very tired or something and he just meant to say the 'insert send'.

But, the bummer part (it seems?), is that when you flip faders, to get the monitor knob to set levels to tape/daw, and the tape/daw return is coming in on the long fader, that long fader doesn't have access to the EQ. It would be nice if there was a button to switch the EQ to either path.

I also think a button to switch the output tranny in/out of the direct outs would be cool too.

you could always...
 

Email them and ask them.....
LOL
steve

SAE Custom Series 75 : try 2
 

Ha ha ha ha!

Thats a good one Steve!

Hmmmm.....
 

...

my 2 cents...
 

right now on our plate, we are tossing and turning over this board or an api 1608. which i was originally planning to get. both fit into our budget. except with the neve, we'll get 24 channel inline and on the api, it will be 16 channels. i was going to get a 8200a, as a sidecar submixer for the api to give it 24 line inputs at mixdown. but also, we would get an additional 8 pres and 8 eqs on the neve. i think its more bang for the buck on the neve. but the api board is an api, and i dont think you can really go wrong with that.

we talked to vintage king about the new custom 75 and already got a price quote on it for a 24 channel. i asked about the patchbay bucket and that isnt going to be out till later on in the year, so i am waiting to find out how much that is going to be. the patchbay bucket is not retrofittable and must be ordered when you order the console. which is fine by me... ill wait.

as far as automation, that is still up in the air whether we will get it or not. ill wait to see when it comes out and see how it runs. im assuming it will be like the shadowmix style automation. i was told the automation is retrofittable and can be installed at a later date.

to me, the new custom 75 looks pretty slick. has a nice amount of options, and very nice routing. my 2 main concerns are: how does it sound? and how will it hold up over time?

Exactly. And it doesn't sounds like just a "mis-speak". He goes into detail about how it's so common to use direct out's for recording now... etc... and thus you can use the mix bus if you want the transformer sound, or for a cleaner sounds, the direct out. BUT... the mix buss goes .... well... to the MIX BUS! If what he says is even close to correct... something is very wrong here!

hmmmmm.... would love to have some clarity on it. :|

As to the flip... I am cool with the EQ going to "tape" regardless of the flip, but I agree it would be nice to have it on the monitor path instead if I wanted it there.

Hi all, here's an update.

For the last two months our very small custom shop has been running what seems like a Flinstones vehicle up a never ending hill, however we're finally feeling a little breathing space coming in to Christmas. Currently nearing the completion of three demo desks and trafficking parts across the country like a Mexican cartel, we are on track for the first production run being released late February.

Firstly, I apologise to those who have emailed us with questions and not received a response. Our info email was swamped, I will be in touch with you all.

Secondly, I have signed up to Gearslutz in order to clear up factual information only. More than happy to answer questions, however all I know are facts regarding the console and shipping (at least from our end) - At this, still, early stage there are some things not mapped out entirely (ie, the automation system which will be released mid next year), in which case I can only tell you everything I know.

With regards to the 8 Recallable Scenes, we have limited this to 8 due to non volatile eeprom size limits. I cannot comment on whether the upcoming release of the automation system will add the ability to save these Scenes externally as it is too early.

I apologise on behalf of Bruce here, he did mean to say 'Insert Send' rather than 'Direct Out'.

The Fader Swap function on each Channel of the Series 75 is exactly that, a Fader Swap, not a Flip. When engaged whilst recording, the Monitor Rotary control will effect the level to tape, and the Faders will be your mix levels (anyone familiar with VCA's TO MONITOR on the SSL 4000G?). Once added to every Channel, swapping the EQ as well would have substantially increased the price. For the amount of benefits, it just wasn't worth it.

Finally, supposing people do have questions, it is a good idea to check the Online Manual (Custom Series 75 - Online Manual) and the YouTube videos first in order to not go over covered ground. If you do not have the time to investigate the console yourself, or want specific personal questions answered I am more than happy for you to email me (dirk@customseries75.com), I will respond asap. Please do not rely on me to answer questions on Gearslutz as I simply do not have the time to sort through serious questions as opposed to covered queries, the previous email address is the best way to have your questions answered.

To those who have been supportive of us you have my gratitude, with any luck we will meet in person at some point in the near future. You have my word that this product is outstanding.

Regards,

Dirk