Airwindows Desk! (AU)

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by chrisj

I'll keep an eye on my email and if Kagi is slow for any reason I'll hook you up.

ShortBuss is for soaking up peaks above 0 db, which Desk by itself will not do- you should quick try out the demo and see if you like how that works. Without Shortbuss or ADClip or a limiter, Desk won't stop your output from clipping. Shortbuss gives more of a 'mix sound' and ADClip is more soundless when not actively clipping.

My own setup now defaults to Desk on every channel and first on the 2-buss, and then ShortBuss after it so I can hit the buss harder if I want and not get overs. I like mixing directly to the desired output level, rather than keeping lots of headroom and then 'mastering' afterwards...

K, just quick-demo'ed shortbuss. I'm also used to leaving headroom and having all of my faders way down...this is a little bit of a different way of working.

I'm ordering the tag team right now.

I'm a huge Density fan and sometimes Classic Channel but I've only bought AD Clip so far.

Thanks for getting back to me!

I'll be sure to report back here tomorrow or later in the week.

[Hardtoe]

Originally Posted by farjedi

Well, the audio example posted shows little change in depth and space, that I could tell..Its not that I necessarily just want to distort stuff but understand what this tool is capable of achieving..so far my impression is it's so subtle, why bother...

Maybe your monitoring just isn't up to snuff??? (no insult, just wondering)

Yes, the change is subtle, but is quite noticeable at the same time if you know what to listen for. I hear the whole freq curve shift a bit from smacky, to a softer, creamier sound - highs are more open and less hard, while the bass seems to juice up and everything has more depth.

I think it helps to a/b directly - I do this in Live by going back n forth between the tracks. It is much harder to hear the change if you just listen to them one after another, like in iTunes for example.

I am loving this one Chris - the improvement in gel and depth is very pleasing for us ITB guys.

Here is another set of examples.

[topperf]

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

Ok, this "desk" is the bomb - tried it on all my groups & busses post fx as Chris suggests (not every individual track-probably 12 instances) and things were totally creamier and more 3D - subtly, yes, but that what this is all about - I am posting some examples for you pleasure.

Nice work Chris - this really useful and tasty...

I've got a set of Dynaudio monitors that are in the 2200$ range so, good but not at all great - and I get a 'huge' difference in these examples - try listening for the picking guitar panned hard left in the start of the sample - really 3 dimensional with Desk ..

Chris - Why the heck not VST so we all could have had it - I want it!

[topperf]

Been listening 5 minutes more and now I really want it.

Nice vibe in the music btw

[Hardtoe]

Originally Posted by topperf

Been listening 5 minutes more and now I really want it.

Nice vibe in the music btw

It's a long-time friend of mine who I have been teaching about tracking and mixing - believe it or not he plays all the parts himself with real instruments (except a VI piano) and records into an Mbox one track at a time with only a cheap condenser and dynamic. It really is all about the music...

Oh, and I dont think monitoring is just about your speakers - your D/A and room treatment can make a major difference to any speakers as well as how you interpret what you are hearing - I wouldn't discount $2200 speakers as only "good, but not at all great" - I have heard flat out cheap set-ups ($200 second hand speakers and DIY amp) that sound great with the right variables. Just give some love to your Dynaudios and try a variety of placements, angles and room treatment - I bet they can sound great if given the right conditions....

[everythinglouder]

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

Ok, this "desk" is the bomb - tried it on all my groups & busses post fx as Chris suggests (not every individual track-probably 12 instances) and things were totally creamier and more 3D - subtly, yes, but that what this is all about - I am posting some examples for you pleasure.

Nice work Chris - this really useful and tasty...

OK, I am far from an expert on the science of nulling, so please, someone correct me/explain to me/etc, but...

These two files null to -72.

Shouldn't this not be happening?

[Hardtoe]

I dont know about nulling (I like to listen), but if you really like to use your eyes, you can zoom in very close on the waveforms and see that the examples are very similar, but not quite the same. It is this "not quite" that has the magic....

[everythinglouder]

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

I dont know about nulling (I like to listen), but if you really like to use your eyes, you can zoom in very close on the waveforms and see that the examples are very similar, but not quite the same. It is this "not quite" that has the magic....

Sorry man. I checked to see if they nulled because I didn't hear a difference in the first place. I just don't think the plug is doing anything in the clips you posted. To each his own.

Nice groove, btw.

[Hardtoe]

It's really a very "obvious if you know where to look" subtle on my setup - I even played it for a friend who is a music fan, but not into recording and he could hear it just fine - this is no placebo, I think you just cant hear it for whatever reason... think 3-D depth - it is even maybe more obvious in phones, so you may want to give that a go...

[topperf]

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

It's a long-time friend of mine who I have been teaching about tracking and mixing - believe it or not he plays all the parts himself with real instruments (except a VI piano) and records into an Mbox one track at a time with only a cheap condenser and dynamic. It really is all about the music...

Oh, and I dont think monitoring is just about your speakers - your D/A and room treatment can make a major difference to any speakers as well as how you interpret what you are hearing - I wouldn't discount $2200 speakers as only "good, but not at all great" - I have heard flat out cheap set-ups ($200 second hand speakers and DIY amp) that sound great with the right variables. Just give some love to your Dynaudios and try a variety of placements, angles and room treatment - I bet they can sound great if given the right conditions....

My room is treated just fine and I love my dynaudios thank you - I was just trying to point out that even on a 'mediocre' setup - the difference is quite clear.

[Hardtoe]

Cool dude, but you aint using Behringer Truths - that is some high level mediocrity!

BTW, Desk is similar to the effect as when I run through my Rooster tube pre - more depth in the bottom and a more spacial sound overall. That's what production is about at certain point - the best possible sound quality, gained in small increments through many careful steps.....

[everythinglouder]

Well here's how I went about the null test -- as I said, I am not an expert with this, so please forgive me if I did it wrong:

I brought your two clips into a Logic session at 44.1, each on their own stereo track. I put Sonalksis' FreeG on 'Somalil Desk' and inverted the phase. They nulled to -72. I double checked by inverting the phase with Eiosis' AirEQ instead of FreeG and again, it nulled to -72.

IF I did this correctly, then I am sorry but I don't understand how you could hear a difference bewteen two identical tracks of audio. Perhaps you accidentally bounced the same audio file twice before uploading to this site?

The thing is, I tried a null test with other program material and just one instance of Desk on the whole stereo track, and in that scenario the audio did not null. So I really have no idea what is going on here, other than if I indeed correctly carried out the null test, your two tracks are the same.

[Hardtoe]

I dont see how you couldn't hear it, so we are even ;-)

Not the same - LISTEN to the spacial qualities in some cans - as topperf pointed out you can really hear it on the guitars on "Somalil".

[chrisj]

-72db is not very faint when you're talking about this sort of thing. Think about it. If you clap your hands in a room and listen to the room verb die away, how quick do you think it hits -72?

It's like dither (which I also have a serious background in): you can have stuff down at that level which produces a really pervasive sense of sound character, especially if you're listening critically to the material.

People can hear dither variations (at least at 16 bit, given good playback) and that's more like -96db down. Compared to that, -72 is screamingly obvious

On top of that- dither affects only the noise floor. Desk is the opposite- at the noise floor it's doing nothing, it only kicks in as the level and slew rise. So that -72 is reserved for only the hottest peaks and brightest sounds and isn't touching anything else... if that's an average figure, try measuring the null on a loud outburst. By the same token, you can get way more interaction than that simply by hitting Desk harder. It's not a uniform -72: on really quiet stuff it's even more subtle, and at really hot levels it kicks in a lot more. It's relative to the amplitude going in...

[chrisj]

Lil followup- I can't get -72 out of it even by normalizing both to the same RMS value and nulling them. The least difference I can get is an average of -67 db, maximum -57. That's RMS- the null actually peaks at -36 db at its hottest. Normalizing the files to the same RMS is going to give you the least difference you could have, so this is pretty conclusive.

You can hear for yourself how audible it is- here's a clip of the files nulled against each other, and then there's a copy of that nulled file normalized.

Enjoy: this is literally the sound of what's in linear digital math that shouldn't really be there. Makes me glad I don't have to have that stuff in my mixes, ever

If there are artifacts in a plugin, they will also show up in the null, louder than this- you can hear pretty plainly that it doesn't hurt or alter the bulk of the sound. There's only that frizzy edge excised, and a sort of garbagey sound which I think is the removal of an abrasive quality having to do with the unyielding DAW math- like you're hearing literally the parts of the DAW mix that don't 'gel'.

Thanks for bringing the null thing to my attention, I might not have done this otherwise. That normalized null is NASTY. And if you run Logic or any DAW without addressing the raw digital math, you're soaking in it

[Hardtoe]

Well, that really is quite revealing - looking forward to trying some new mixes from the ground up with desk in from the getgo.

I'm sure the results will be even better when mixing through desk rather than just sticking it on at the end.....

[PlayRadioPlay]

Chris, you need to throw some sexy faceplates on these wonderful plugins of yours :-). Iron Oxide is one of my favorite plugins. Ever.

[chrisj]

Dude, Desk doesn't have KNOBS. What the heck is supposed to be on the faceplate? You want 60 instances of 'no knobs here!' covering your screen? :o

Nope! They're all faceless plugins. I work pretty hard to make the controls adjust right- sometimes the algorithm for what the slider maps to is beyond belief, in order to get the range right so it falls into place easily. The end listener can't see a faceplate anyway, and it's one less thing to go wrong in DAW upgrades. Ask Massey how much fun it is to do AU graphic views and make them really bulletproof (as he insists they be). The last major Logic revision, I had to do nothing to keep my users compatible with it. I have to make sure your stuff will still work when the DAW changes out from under it...

[stresstour]

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

Maybe your monitoring just isn't up to snuff??? (no insult, just wondering)

Yes, the change is subtle, but is quite noticeable at the same time if you know what to listen for. I hear the whole freq curve shift a bit from smacky, to a softer, creamier sound - highs are more open and less hard, while the bass seems to juice up and everything has more depth.

I think it helps to a/b directly - I do this in Live by going back n forth between the tracks. It is much harder to hear the change if you just listen to them one after another, like in iTunes for example.

I am loving this one Chris - the improvement in gel and depth is very pleasing for us ITB guys.

Here is another set of examples.

The "desk" example, right at 15 seconds, especially listening to the bass line is much better. Smoother and bigger sound. A quick hear will not convince you of what is going on, but to my ears this is very noticeable. And I haven't even heard this on my monitors yet, just headphones.

Good Job Chris

[Hardtoe]

I think what PlayRadioPlay is getting at is that you would sell a lot more if you had a fancy GUI (Though I admit this would be tough for desk).

We all know that it's the sound and not the looks, but at some level most people want good looking stuff, even if it's no reflection of audio quality.

You still get the real engineers buying your stuff as tools (if you listen carefully, it is clear that Airwindows plugs are easily as good as any others out there), but the average casual home recordists may just want some flash new toy for immediate gratification.

I support your graphicless approach - it shifts the focus where is should be, but the funny thing is that it is probably more lucrative financially to have bad sounding plugs that look good (lots of those around).

Some people just need an image to hold onto. All the "vintage gear" coders know clearly know the power of pretending you have a tube comp or whatever - that's why so much of the concepts for plugs are stuck in the analog paradigm - it easier to get a grip on, than a new concept for processing sound (and sexier to think that YOU have the tools that were used to make your favourite album). The nice picture completes the fantasy.

Also Desk is a little more abstract - unlike something like Nebula which has impulses from classic desks (who doesn't want that classic sound), Airwindows Desk is just what your concept of a great console does to the sound. It sounds very good, but the idea is abstract and for a lot of people feel more comfortable going with something that has some sort of track record (even if a impulse in Nebula is not actually like using the desk it was sampled from, the association of "a proven sound" is still there in people's minds).

Many people may not have the experience to discern for themselves what really good sonics even are - this type of user (50%+ of GS's???) relies on hype to tell them what to get for their productions. It is much easier to get excited and buy something when it looks purty.

WTF does this have to do with anything (what a long rambling rant)?

I guess my point is:

Desk Rocks with no GUI.

Desk with GUI would probably move a lot more virtual units, but hey, I am perfectly happy to be part of the "hearing" crowd who gets these treats as somewhat secret weapons.

BTW PlayRadioPlay - seems like your back to tape thread is revealing some new serious challenges in technical support - Chris is to blame for getting you interested with his awesome tape sim plug-in....

[XHipHop]

<---me right now.

[alienimplant]

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

Ok, this "desk" is the bomb - tried it on all my groups & busses post fx as Chris suggests (not every individual track-probably 12 instances) and things were totally creamier and more 3D - subtly, yes, but that what this is all about - I am posting some examples for you pleasure.

Nice work Chris - this really useful and tasty...

Dude, you sooo just sold me with this sample. Just listening in my skull candy earbuds, the difference is startling. Holy Scheiße!!

[Hardtoe]

Originally Posted by alienimplant

Dude, you sooo just sold me with this sample. Just listening in my skull candy earbuds, the difference is startling. Holy Scheiße!!

Hey Chris, do I get a t-shirt or something

Just kidding - I am glad if I can help Airwindows plugs move - it is a real grassroots kind of company...

[chrisj]

Just remember to be good, OK? Don't invade threads or anything- stay on topic.

I got this month's bills covered and I'm budgeted well into next year, including a cushion for if I get a really lame sales month. Help me not by throwing deserved hype online, but by making a damn hit record with heavy use of my plugins and sounds (this goes double for you hiphop guys, I know you're out there)

The idea has always been to facilitate making awesome noises that people crave to listen to, that's the name of the game. If Desk really helps bring vibe then it'll work as an advantage to put across a great song, and those are worth a thousand online raves. Do great stuff and I'll help as much as I possibly can

[Hardtoe]

I dont get it - did I invade your thread? What is the subtext here???

I have posted examples that many people have listened to, and defended your decision to go without GUI's - If we cant have a little discussion beyond "this rocks" or "this sucks" then it's hardly worth posting for me...It is natural to have a few sidelines come up in any topic.

And unless you're Santa Claus I dont think I need you telling me to "Be Good"...only people who deliver presents through the chimney get that privledge....

As for hits, I'm working on it

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

I dont get it - did I invade your thread? What is the subtext here???

Of course you didn't invade his thread!

Chris just doesn't come across very articulately sometimes and I think he's referring to his OWN tendency to drop into other threads and hype his products. (or products that he hasn't created yet but insists can be better than others)

Hardtoe you've done Chris a great service here and I'm sure he's very grateful!

R.

[farjedi]

Had another listen, there is a presence to the bass line in the Desk version perhaps I didn't notice before, I used the microscopes (headphones) both times. It's subtle, and if it doesn't cost much cpu to get there, then why not...

[PlayRadioPlay]

Originally Posted by chrisj

Dude, Desk doesn't have KNOBS. What the heck is supposed to be on the faceplate? You want 60 instances of 'no knobs here!' covering your screen? :o

Nope! They're all faceless plugins. I work pretty hard to make the controls adjust right- sometimes the algorithm for what the slider maps to is beyond belief, in order to get the range right so it falls into place easily. The end listener can't see a faceplate anyway, and it's one less thing to go wrong in DAW upgrades. Ask Massey how much fun it is to do AU graphic views and make them really bulletproof (as he insists they be). The last major Logic revision, I had to do nothing to keep my users compatible with it. I have to make sure your stuff will still work when the DAW changes out from under it...

Completely understood, and I respect that. Although I wasn't talking about Desk as much as your other stuff.

Clearly you have the ability to make great sounding plugins, and everyone here acknowledges that. But I don't think anyone here would object to having some simple, retro, photorealistic GUIs to further enhance the experience. Once again, it doesn't really matter, but it would be really cool, and like was said above, could help bring in more revenue!

Some inspiration:




Obviously, two of those are near exact replicas of the look of a real piece of gear, but the Softube plugin is a great example of an original design that's retro, but looks like something that could have easily existed as a real piece of gear. Someone (wink wink) REALLY needs to be the first person to use the big, beautiful UA/Shadow Hills knobs on a plugin. Also, you could have an option on the plugin that goes back and forth between the faceless and facefull (???) versions

Even something as simple as Massey's plugins (all of his stuff looks great):


Desk could just be a picture of an old blank panel. You could even make it "Neve" colored.


Anyway, I love your work Chris. I'll be demoing desk very soon. Thanks for making great stuff and thanks for keeping it reasonably priced.

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

BTW PlayRadioPlay - seems like your back to tape thread is revealing some new serious challenges in technical support - Chris is to blame for getting you interested with his awesome tape sim plug-in....

Haha, I could certainly blame Chris for making me buy a real tape machine and coming to the realization that getting great tape sounds isn't as simple as opening up an Air Windows plug.

Though the sound isn't the only reason I'm trying to transition to tape.

[Hardtoe]

Ok, I cant help myself - one more example - this time some Jazz:

(This one doesn't have many tracks, so only about 6 "desks" on it)

[Reborn]

Originally Posted by chrisj

I'll keep an eye on my email and if Kagi is slow for any reason I'll hook you up.

ShortBuss is for soaking up peaks above 0 db, which Desk by itself will not do- you should quick try out the demo and see if you like how that works. Without Shortbuss or ADClip or a limiter, Desk won't stop your output from clipping. Shortbuss gives more of a 'mix sound' and ADClip is more soundless when not actively clipping.

My own setup now defaults to Desk on every channel and first on the 2-buss, and then ShortBuss after it so I can hit the buss harder if I want and not get overs. I like mixing directly to the desired output level, rather than keeping lots of headroom and then 'mastering' afterwards...

I Use to work this way too. Unitl I tried the other way(outputting as low as -20) and I discovered that Logic outputs a much more open signal. I think this is because of very fast peaks over zero that can't be seen on the current generation digital meters. Anyway outputting at a more conservative level and recovering that level in mastering has given me a more open exciting sound without changing levels on the final master. I had tried this years ago but I wasn't being conservative enough with level because I was using the meters to determine.

Jazztone