Dave Lebolt leaves Digidesign for Apple?

[DRC]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

You know, if I were the GM of Digi:
1. I would bring out a new PCI card that has the power of an HD3 Accel on a single card.

2. I would then price the card at $2k. No more. That's slightly higher than a UAD card.
IMO most people would buy the card because of the zero latency and pros could start stacking them in their system.
Now your HD 3 is now more like an HD9. One card at a time.

I would love this as long as it doesn't make my HD Core card that I just purchased last year obsolete in the same way HD made my Mix system obsolete a year and a half after I bought it. If you are talking about a SUPER-Accel card that will work in conjunction with the cores we already have then I'm totally with you on this one.

With the economy the way it is, I don't know how many people could possibly update all their Digi-hardware. Add on yes. Re-buy...no.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

LMAO this is probably the first time I read a positive post from you about Pro Tools! Also probably the first were we agree on...

I spend most if my time on the post-production forum.
But I have actually, for a while, been telling people exactly that.
From 7.2 on, PT's became a viable mixer for me.
In fact, I prefer mixing Post ITB over anything else.
I can get better results in the same amount of time, and fixes and changes can be done much, much faster.

[Syltagogotronix]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

You know, if I were the GM of Digi:
1. I would bring out a new PCI card that has the power of an HD3 Accel on a single card.

2. I would then price the card at $2k. No more. That's slightly higher than a UAD card.

4. I would do away with PTHD or PTLE or PTMP. There would just be ONE software. Pro Tools.

That´s what I need to jump ship from Logic.

You´ve got my vote for president..

[Henchman]

Digi should be looking at the crystal core technology that Fairlight is using.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Digi .

We should now say Avi!

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

6. People are going Hybrid DAW.
I would build a controller that had an UNBELIEVABLE analog side to it.
The ideal would be a 500 series console with ethernet control of every parameter.

FWIW, i had a simular idea about a year back, and launched a thread called (I think), "the future of hardware". Didn't get any feedback!

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by Henchman

From 7.2 on, PT's became a viable mixer for me.

What did 7.2 include which changed your opinion?

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

What did 7.2 include which changed your opinion?

Preview was the really big one for me.

I also have been using autojoin and latch prime a lot.
Don't know when those were added though, to be honest.

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

You know, if I were the GM of Digi:

Yeah. I think Tony's on to something. Digi (and all hardware based DAWS) are going to have to take drastic measures to stay relevant. The clock is ticking!

[studiojimi]

Originally Posted by AnonJack

WOW! Horrible news. Scott Church was one of the main architects behind transforming Pro Tools into the version 8 that we see today.

so this IS the cat i should send my eye doctor bill to?

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Digi should be looking at the crystal core technology that Fairlight is using.

whatever they have going is pretty damn cool- It would be a pretty big change from the Motorola universe, but the power of the CC1 card is quite impressive.

the CC1 card with a Madi connection would be pretty cool.

[jmarkham]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

Deep-sixing "Digidesign" brand was a bonehead move, to be sure.

Total agreement with your suggestions.

Oh Gosh KK, I completely agree. And it's not like that feedback wasn't
given to Digi / Avid. They had several forums where the music community
was able to provide input on the re-branding strategy .. and it was nearly
unanimous. While Avid may have some presence in the video world, it has
near zero presence in the audio world. People understood Avid to be some
corporate presence over Digi ... a byline .. like " a wholly owned subsidiary"
etc. .. but they had zero brand recognition in the audio space.

Digi was the brand in the audio world .. and they seemingly have
squandered that.

But, I feel that re-branding was much more subversive than just a
marketing trick.

They've actually killed Digidesign as a company in a deliberate attempt
to try and save the video side of their business. Whatever you perceive
Digi to be as a company prior to last February, they are no more.

Avid's management deliberately decided to circle the wagons around the
video business, even though they had let that business languish to
Apple, Sony etc. Their Vice President's message last winter was telling.
It basically said "yea, we suck, but we're going to get better."

And that entailed taking revenues from relatively strong sectors of the
company to shore up the parts that hadn't kept pace. And if your an
Avid Composer user .. you know exactly where the problem areas lie.

Protools 8 was a pinnacle (no pun) release from Digi .. and perhaps the
last great release from what was Digidesign. The flight of talent, either
forced or voluntary, has (in my HO) killed this company.

While Tony's suggestions are all wonderful, the management at Avid
has rendered the shell of what was Digidesign incapable of executing
any of these suggestions.

They are simply too understaffed and underfunded to execute any
of them.

I can only imagine the angst of the management at Digi that thought
the Avid acquisition was a good idea.

jeff

[~ufo~]

To be fair, I think it's more that "pro tools" is the brand.

no one has ever asked me whether or not I use Digidesign systems.
They have asked me whether or not I use Pro Tools.

I think the majority of people who know and use the term Digidesign, aslo know what AVID is.

They can change the name to Avid for all I care, what WOULD be a dangerous move is rebranding the Pro Tools platform......

Originally Posted by jmarkham

Oh Gosh KK, I completely agree. And it's not like that feedback wasn't
given to Digi / Avid. Digi was the brand in the audio world .. and they seemingly have
squandered that.


jeff

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by ~ufo~

To be fair, I think it's more that "pro tools" is the brand.

no one has ever asked me whether or not I use Digidesign systems.
They have asked me whether or not I use Pro Tools.

I think the majority of people who know and use the term Digidesign, aslo know what AVID is.

They can change the name to Avid for all I care, what WOULD be a dangerous move is rebranding the Pro Tools platform......

I agree. Apple Logic used to be Emagic Logic Audio (which was of course C-Labs Notator Logic before that), and the change in both brand and product name hasn't seemed to hurt its continued progression and popularity.

As long as they keep the "Pro Tools" moniker, and continue to innovate and push the software platform forward, they'll be alright. But no doubt this is quite a turbulent time in Digi---oops, I mean Avid-land.

[Henchman]

Dumping money into developing ANYTHING for a segment of the market that is finding less and less people spending lots of money on gear, is throwing money away.
Developing a console with a kick add front end would be a waste of resources.
Post is the future for Digi.

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Dumping money into developing ANYTHING for a segment of the market that is finding less and less people spending lots of money on gear, is throwing money away.
Developing a console with a kick add front end would be a waste of resources.
Post is the future for Digi.

+1.

And as their post market has used the word Avid for years anyway - producers will ask "do you have an Avid?" (referring to -any- NLE) much like people will say "do you have a Pro Tools" in the music world - and they're probably banking on this.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by studiojimi

so this IS the cat i should send my eye doctor bill to?

Hey jimi, what part of town is your studio in?
Now that I live in LA, I might have to stop by sometime.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by ~ufo~

To be fair, I think it's more that "pro tools" is the brand.

You are correct sir! This is exactly what I've been trying to tell people all along. In a way this was a problem to Digidesign, that their product name was bigger than their own.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Dumping money into developing ANYTHING for a segment of the market that is finding less and less people spending lots of money on gear, is throwing money away.
Developing a console with a kick add front end would be a waste of resources.
Post is the future for Digi.

I am not so sure about that mark (post being the future) I just dont think the sales volume is there....

I think Tony's idea about a unified app is really the way to go- it could then allow people to scale via dsp cards as needed- The more I think about that, the more I like it....

[work2do]

Originally Posted by ~ufo~

To be fair, I think it's more that "pro tools" is the brand.

no one has ever asked me whether or not I use Digidesign systems.
They have asked me whether or not I use Pro Tools.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

I am not so sure about that mark (post being the future) I just dont think the sales volume is there....

I think Tony's idea about a unified app is really the way to go- it could then allow people to scale via dsp cards as needed- The more I think about that, the more I like it....

I agree that Digi needs to release a much better DSP card.
Having to spend a ridiculous amount of money on an expansion chassis is a very poor solution IMO.
They need to drop the arrogance approach, and start looking at the Crystal core cards being used by Fairlight.
Which, from all accounts, are incredibly powerful.

But pumping money into designing an incredible front end for an industry that is losing studio's hand over fist that would buy these consoles, isn't the smartest idea.

I do think they need to design a much better controller though.
The Icon is OK, just not 100% there, IMO.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I agree that Digi needs to release a much better DSP card.
Having to spend a ridiculous amount of money on an expansion chassis is a very poor solution IMO.
They need to drop the arrogance approach, and start looking at the Crystal core cards being used by Fairlight.
Which, from all accounts, are incredibly powerful.

But pumping money into designing an incredible front end for an industry that is losing studio's hand over fist that would buy these consoles, isn't the smartest idea.

I do think they need to design a much better controller though.
The Icon is OK, just not 100% there, IMO.

I think the ICON is in a weird place- the D-Control is almost too big, too spreadout, and the D-Command is nice ergonomically but short on controls It really is an update on the ProControl if you look at it feature-wise. I am still a big fan of the DFC and even the MPC designs aesthetically. The problem with all of these though is their cost, and the obvious nature of them not being a personal cost object, more of an institutional priced item.

Honestly the advanced consoles by all the vendors are beyond the reach of over 95% of the users.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

I think the ICON is in a weird place- the D-Control is almost too big, too spreadout, and the D-Command is nice ergonomically but shirt on controls. I am still a big fan of the DFC and even the MPC. The problem with all of these though is their cost, and the obvious nature of them not being a personal cost object, more of an institutional priced item.

Honestly the advanced consoles by all the vendors are beyond the reach of over 95% of the users.

I've mixed on large format consoles including the Euphonix System 5, and the MPC over at Sony.
I can honestly say, I've gotten to the point where I prefer mixing ITB.
I actually HATED the MPC.
I just find it so much faster to get things done ITB, especially when it comes time to do fixes/changes.
I can get better results in the same amount of time, mixing ITB. Especially when it comes to mixing Dialog.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I've mixed on large format consoles including the Euphonix System 5, and the MPC over at Sony.
I can honestly say, I've gotten to the point where I prefer mixing ITB.
I actually HATED the MPC.
I just find it so much faster to get things done ITB, especially when it comes time to do fixes/changes.
I can get better results in the same amount of time, mixing ITB. Especially when it comes to mixing Dialog.

I am not talking about the in/out of box paradigm, moreso the way those surfaces are layed out physically.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by Henchman

They need to drop the arrogance approach, and start looking at the Crystal core cards being used by Fairlight.

If they would only start to look at three-year-old technology today, they could have a problem.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

If they would only start to look at a three-year-old technology today, they could have a problem.

Yeah, even this 3 year old technology is vastly superior to anything Dig ever used.

Described as a “media-optimized FPGA architecture” forming an aggregation of IP cores, CC-1 is a PCI Express card fitted inside a host PC.
This single card can provide 200-plus channels of audio recording/editing/mixing into 72 mix buses, with each channel equipped with 12 aux sends, eight bands of EQ and three stages of dynamics (limiter, compressor and expander), along with uncompressed HD video.

If that's not enough horsepower, four CC-1 cards offer 960 channels into 320 buses, with no theoretical limit to the number of linkable processors, although Fairlight is initially only supporting one card per system. But the cost savings are significant. The CC-1's single FPGA yields the same performance as Fairlight's Constellation system, which uses 64 Analog Devices SHARC DSP chips.

Pretty crappy huh?

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Yeah, even this 3 year old technology is vastly superior to anything Dig ever used.



Pretty crappy huh?

the fact that Fairlight is only supporting one CC1 card per system makes their multi card claims of capability somewhat suspect- no?..... the CC1 has been out for a while now... have they expanded the capabilty on the system? I am thinking data throughput would be the biggest bottlenect to overcome- especially at high SR's.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

I am thinking data throughput would be the biggest bottlenect to overcome- especially at high SR's.

Personally, I believe the market for DSP cards that can do only one thing belongs to the past. I doubt that I'll go back to using DSP cards again, but if I ever would, I would want a card that would be equally useful for video and audio.

The Nvidia FX 5800 has a data throughput of 102 gb/second, and 4 gb RAM on board. I don't know much about how the new stuff (GPGPU, OpenCL) in SnowLeopard will work with audio, but I doubt that the next generation DSP cards from Avid will be limited for audio use.

Since video editing is much more heavy (DSP wise) than audio editing, manufacturing new DSP cards that can't also handle real time video plugins doesn't seem to make much sense, especially for a company that has laid off hundreds of employees lately.

Producing such a card would mean rewriting a lot of code, and could take time. The VP/general manager at Avid Audio wrote "I think you’ll see us heading clearly in the right direction over the next 18 months" over at the DUC, but if true 16-core Macs are out by then, how big is the market for any kind of dedicated DSP? He also wrote that they've always had strong competitors, but in terms of audio processing, it's only since circa 2005 they've had any strong, real life competitors - the most significant one being Apple - from the days of the fastest G5s, the Intel move, the shift to PCIe.

In a poll here on GS about Digidesign's next move, most people stated that they thought that Digi either would make a new card offering the power of several old cards or do nothing at all (in new in the near future) - and the latter group was right.

Apple is now building its own team of engineers to design microchips, and is to my knowledge the only OS manufacturer that does this. Future generations of high-end Apple hardware could come with dedicated DSP chips; self-manufactured chips that also would serve as a dongle for OS X (potentially eliminating Hackintoshes). Only god - if there is one - knows what all this means for Avid.

To be able to compete with PT stronger than they already do, Apple "only" has to release a new version of Logic with elastic audio and all that. To be able to compete with Apple, or: to be able to keep selling DSP hardware (Moore's law and all that) Avid has a lot more work to do.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Personally, I believe the market for DSP cards that can do only one thing belongs to the past. I doubt that I'll go back to using DSP cards again, but if I ever would, I would want a card that would be equally useful for video and audio.

The Nvidia FX 5800 has a data throughput of 102 gb/second, and 4 gb RAM on board. I don't know much about how the new stuff (GPGPU, OpenCL) in SnowLeopard will work with audio, but I doubt that the next generation DSP cards from Avid will be limited for audio use.

Since video editing is much more heavy (DSP wise) than audio editing, manufacturing new DSP cards that can't also handle real time video plugins doesn't seem to make much sense, especially for a company that has laid if hundreds of employees lately.

Producing such a card would mean rewriting a lot of code, and could take time. The VP/general manager at Avid Audio wrote "I think you’ll see us heading clearly in the right direction over the next 18 months" over at the DUC, but if true 16-core Macs are out by then, how big is the market for any kind of dedicated DSP? He also wrote that they've always had strong competitors, but in terms of audio processing, it's only since circa 2005 they've had any strong, real life competitors - the most significant one being Apple - from the days of the fastest G5s, the Intel move, the shift to PCIe.

In a poll here on GS about Digidesign's next move, most people stated that they thought that Digi either would make a new card offering the power of several old cards or do nothing at all (in new in the near future) - and the latter group was right.

Apple is now building its own team of engineers to design microchips, and is to my knowledge the only OS manufacturer that does this. Future generations of high-end Apple hardware could come with dedicated DSP chips; self-manufactured chips that also would serve as a dongle for OS X (potentially eliminating Hackintoshes). Only god - if there is one - knows what all this means for Avid.

To be able to compete with PT stronger than they already do, Apple "only" has to release a new version of Logic with elastic audio and all that. To be able to compete with Apple, or: to be able to keep selling DSP hardware (Moore's law and all that) Avid has a lot more work to do.

Interesting forecasting- Apple did muck around with dedicated DSP with the first PowerMac series, but they lost interest pretty quickly in it. It does cost alot to do chip design, and most processor designers seem to plan for a life span of at 3 or 4 years for their designs. other things that have to be factored in also are backwards compatibility... which really prevents non-incremental design sequences as well. I suppose the writing is on the wall for a native PT, but chips being designed as dongles is a very narrow interpretation of the purpose for them. Again, data throughput is where the battle is going to be, especially with HD video formats. The drives and interfaces are going to be the constraining factors I think...

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

Apple did muck around with dedicated DSP with the first PowerMac series, but they lost interest pretty quickly in it.

Whatever chips Apple is working on don't even have to be 'dedicated' DSP chips - they would just have to be able to do DSP, just like PPC and Intel chips already do.

chips being designed as dongles is a very narrow interpretation of the purpose for them.

They wouldn't have to be designed as dongles, but if there's some encryption involved, and the chips are executing some essential OS and application tasks, they will serve as dongles without even trying - since they are manufactured and encrypted by the same company that makes the OS, the computer and the apps. This could, at least theoretically, even allow for something much bigger: a version of OS X that runs on non-Apple computers (but without the extra power offered by Apple's custom chips).

While Avid is struggling with a reduced market for what many of us consider overpriced hardware, Apple is possibly struggling with more success than they can handle. They make a phone, and suddenly become the world's third largest cell phone supplier, they own the MP3 player market, are successfully invading the video editing market with Final Cut Pro, I'm sure they'll make a brilliant iPad soon, and are producing several audio apps. If there's one company that can revolutionize the audio market, it's Apple. If they aren't going to keep doing it, it's only because they don't want to.

Apple has always been the computer for audio/music, even before they owned the Logic Pro, GarageBand and Soundtrack Pro developer teams. I'm 100% sure they won't abandon that market, they are also loaded with money, so I'm pretty sure Dave Lebolt is a happy guy in his new job at Apple, whatever he's going to do there.