Stop it!

[Reitzas]

If you are trying to sell a replica version of a classic mic at a trade show; don't embarrass us by always making your knock-off louder than the classic in your A/B comparison test. I don't think you're fooling anybody.
Please stop it.
Thank you.



David Reitzas : Mixer - Engineer - Producer

[AntillesSound]

what mic david?

-brad

ps-IMPRESSIVE discography. Congrats!

[dbjp]

Why would anybody of your standings care about what companies making replicas do at shows?

[Fausto]

I think caring helps you go far... MHO.

F

[dbjp]

Originally Posted by Fausto

I think caring helps you go far... MHO.

F

That's seriously taking the word out of context.

[Reitzas]

Originally Posted by dbjp

That's seriously taking the word out of context.

No, it is because I care.
I think it's unethical to step on the reputation of someone else or their product with bogus comparisons for the sole purpose of one's own self promotion.
When I see things like this happen, I think it's important to bring it to light.
I will not mention any names, but I hope that by bringing this topic forward, it may make those that are guilty of this tactic to rethink their methods.
Reputation is important.

David Reitzas : Mixer - Engineer - Producer

[synthetic]

The entire industry is based on replicas. It's because we have been told over and over, to record a vocal you need to plug a U47 into a 1073 into an 1176. So the entire industry keeps repeating these designs -- some of the first attempts at a microphone, preamp, EQ and compressor! What if Ford had stopped at the Model T, or Apple had stopped at the Apple I?

At the TEC awards the other night, the award for "technical achievement in recording for 2008" went to a roll of analog tape. The award for "technical achievement in signal processing" went to an LA2A.

WTF? Why is this industry so afraid of change? Aren't musicians supposed to be individualists?

[Reitzas]

I'm not suggesting that these replica mics are not worthy of their design and perhaps, in some cases, may even exceed in quality verses their price point.

I only have a problem with how they choose to compare their mics with the classics. That is what I think is misleading and unethical.

I would have much more respect for a company that compares on a level playing field and then emphasizes how strong their product is for the price. While at the same time explaining how they stand behind the hard work and care that has been put in to developing their product. All the while enthusing us and motivating us about why we should be buying their quality mic at an affordable price.

All good here. Just had a little problem in my head that I needed to get out. There's a lot more I could say but I'd like to hear what others think.

BTW, I'm mixing at Capitol for the next few days and (when I can get a break) I'll try to jump onto the forum as a more positive poster and share more "wow" moments to spread the joy from my trip to the AES Convention.



David Reitzas : Mixer - Engineer - Producer

[paul mckenna]

Hey David, good to see you on here. I agree with the loudness mismatch. thats the oldest trick in the audio book. hifi stores for years have used that trick to sell their brands over others with less markup. Funny how the louder ones always win. i remember looking behind the display in a store and seeing L-pads on some of the speakers.
again good to see you around here
paul

[H-Rezz]

Good to see you on the forum David, i've been a fan of your work for years ! Hope you'll stick around and share some of your mixing experience

[peeder]

...Breaking exile a moment to shamelessly note some examples:

Tele USA ELA M 251: up ~3db over real vintage model. Made mistake of having gain knobs readily accessible. I corrected them carefully and found that the $20k vintage had gorgeous warmth and authentic detail and their knockoff was bright and harsh.

Heil: PR30 and PR40 up >6db from RE20. RE20 in awful condition. Pr30 had much more lowend present than when I tested and returned it; RE20 sounded busted. No gain knobs visible on display; claimed fixed gain, Bob Heil got so excited and in my face I had to relieve him by walking away.

Neumann: TLM67 up >6db from M149.

(And btw. Mr. Reitzas may be the very best in the world at mixing vocals. He makes my vocal references fwiw.)

[jjblair]

The worst comparison I heard was somebody using a really shoddy example of a U47 against their unrelated , very bright mic, and saying, "See how much better this sounds than a U47?" Not only was the U47 sketchy looking, and sounding, you're comparing apples to oranges. And to make matters worse, the droid giving the demo didn't know shit about mics. I mean, really fundamental stuff. I was supposed to be impressed that he's wearing a lab coat and has "been an engineer for 30 years," I guess.

He started to get pissed wen I started to tell him things about his mic he didn;t seem to know, and asked him questions he had no idea how to answer.

Dave, I would have called you for poker Friday, but I spaced my chips and cards in my garage! Sorry I missed you on the floor.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by jjblair

The worst comparison I heard was somebody using a really shoddy example of a U47 against their unrelated , very bright mic, and saying, "See how much better this sounds than a U47?" Not only was the U47 sketchy looking, and sounding, you're comparing apples to oranges. And to make matters worse, the droid giving the demo didn't know shit about mics. I mean, really fundamental stuff. I was supposed to be impressed that he's wearing a lab coat and has "been an engineer for 30 years," I guess.

He started to get pissed wen I started to tell him things about his mic he didn;t seem to know, and asked him questions he had no idea how to answer.

Was that the MXL booth? I didn't bother with that side. I took one listen to the "Genesis" or whatever their new screechy red mic is and fled.

The mic discoveries I did like off the show floor were the Mojave MA-201fet, the DPA 4099, the JZ Black Hole (I liked the cardioid-only version), and one very gorgeous limited mic I'm not going to mention because it is so limited I may not be able to buy one and I'm trying to figure out whether I should.

[jjblair]

No, it was a mic in the Mercenary Booth.

[ArcCirDude]

Originally Posted by peeder

...... and one very gorgeous limited mic I'm not going to mention because it is so limited I may not be able to buy one and I'm trying to figure out whether I should.

You just stay away from that J*******n, Peeder...... Probably only a few left. Now, where did my son hide his piggy bank?

[Sean Sullivan]

The Heil booth was a joke, I was considering their products and an RE-20 and thought it was great both were there, but after that test and the huge dB difference, I think I'll get the old standby RE-20. I liked the JZ booth, which had a U87 AI match in volume and not all jacked up was a great, valid test.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by jjblair

The worst comparison I heard was somebody using a really shoddy example of a U47 against their unrelated , very bright mic, and saying, "See how much better this sounds than a U47?" Not only was the U47 sketchy looking, and sounding, you're comparing apples to oranges. And to make matters worse, the droid giving the demo didn't know shit about mics. I mean, really fundamental stuff. I was supposed to be impressed that he's wearing a lab coat and has "been an engineer for 30 years," I guess.

He started to get pissed wen I started to tell him things about his mic he didn;t seem to know, and asked him questions he had no idea how to answer.

Dave, I would have called you for poker Friday, but I spaced my chips and cards in my garage! Sorry I missed you on the floor.

Calling out microphones [or individuals] quality based on a trade show floor. Pretty dumb if you ask me. Dan Alexander gave me a demo at the T-Funk booth. I saw where the gain was, you guys are ******** for yelling about science on a F#CKING TRADE SHOW FLOOR!

I'd tell you to use your ears, but its clear you'd use a post before that.

Unreal.

[eddierodriguez]

Originally Posted by Reitzas

Stop it!

word

[MonoBrow]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

Calling out microphones [or individuals] quality based on a trade show floor. Pretty dumb if you ask me. Dan Alexander gave me a demo at the T-Funk booth. I saw where the gain was, you guys are ******** for yelling about science on a F#CKING TRADE SHOW FLOOR!

I'd tell you to use your ears, but its clear you'd use a post before that.

Unreal.

Then why Builders do these tests on the shows?If they do it they should do it RIGHT.Fooling people with that is bullcrap and you KNOW that!

[TonyBelmont]

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Fluxpod

Then why Builders do these tests on the shows?If they do it they should do it RIGHT.Fooling people with that is bullcrap and you KNOW that!

So you can hear it. NOT USE IT!!! There is a difference. Are you recording trade show floors? If not, than I see no real way to figure out the REAL response of these microphones with regard to the sources your trying to record, and the room your recording them in. I'm not defending "level mismatching" but if the amplifier from the microphones offers more gain, than it offers more gain. Its as simple as that.

Bashing microphones you heard on the trade show floor is dumb. Use it on your source, in your room and then decide.

YOU ALL should know that. Oh wait, this is Gearslutz, I forgot where I was.

[MonoBrow]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

So you can hear it. NOT USE IT!!! There is a difference. Are you recording trade show floors? If not, than I see no real way to figure out the REAL response of these microphones with regard to the sources your trying to record, and the room your recording them in. I'm not defending "level mismatching" but if the amplifier from the microphones offers more gain, than it offers more gain. Its as simple as that.

Bashing microphones you heard on the trade show floor is dumb. Use it on your source, in your room and then decide.

YOU ALL should know that. Oh wait, this is Gearslutz, I forgot where I was.

You are missing the point...When Builders do a/b tests..and they want you to listen,(following me?) then....they should do it right or just dont do a/b tests.It really is simple,show the mic,let people listen but tell em to test it against the vintage "real" thing at home.Dont claim stuff you can only proove with tricks. If people dont have a "real" vintage mic to compare....then they will buy it anyways if it sounds good.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

Bashing microphones you heard on the trade show floor is dumb. Use it on your source, in your room and then decide.

YOU ALL should know that. Oh wait, this is Gearslutz, I forgot where I was.

Obviously no one is doing a valid listening comparison on the floor. It's about FIRST impressions only. Otherwise, why even bother to run them thru a pre and let people listen?? Your argument holds no water I'm afraid. Trade shows are where huge buzz's - either good or bad - are created, and the stakes are very high.

So get it right for Mercenary's sake.

First - It's not hard to gain match microphones for an honest test. Really, it's pretty much one of the simplest of jobs for even the most neophyte of audio engineers. One can only assume that if levels aren't matched an an A/B comparison, that: A.) the company presenting them is shoddy, or B.) they are trying to "pull a fast one", or C.) one of the "listeners" has changed gain settings and jacked up the comparison.

So, you choose, which was it?

This is the oldest trick in the book......

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

I saw where the gain was, you guys are ******** for yelling about science on a F#CKING TRADE SHOW FLOOR!

I'd tell you to use your ears, but its clear you'd use a post before that.

Second, insulting your client base as you have done above is one of the stupidest things a salesman can do. If you worked for me, you would loose your internet access at best, or your job at worst.

Unbelieveable......



I'm with you Dave. thumbsupthumbsup

[laser]

Originally Posted by Fluxpod

You are missing the point...When Builders do a/b tests..and they want you to listen,(following me?) then....they should do it right or just dont do a/b tests.It really is simple,show the mic,let people listen but tell em to test it against the vintage "real" thing at home.Dont claim stuff you can only proove with tricks. If people dont have a "real" vintage mic to compare....then they will buy it anyways if it sounds good.

+1. I had the same exact thought when I read Adam's lame post.

If you want people to HEAR your mic, make it available for us to HEAR. We'll recognize the limitations of the trade show and make our decision whether to try it in our studio (or not) based on what we HEAR and factoring in the limitations of the environment and set-up.

If you want people to COMPARE your mic to a vintage classic, either make the COMPARISON on a level field or don't try to demonstrate the COMPARISON.

Pretty simple, actually.

Laser

[Reitzas]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

So you can hear it. NOT USE IT!!! There is a difference. Are you recording trade show floors? If not, than I see no real way to figure out the REAL response of these microphones with regard to the sources your trying to record, and the room your recording them in. I'm not defending "level mismatching" but if the amplifier from the microphones offers more gain, than it offers more gain. Its as simple as that.

Bashing microphones you heard on the trade show floor is dumb. Use it on your source, in your room and then decide.

YOU ALL should know that. Oh wait, this is Gearslutz, I forgot where I was.

This thread was not started to bash microphones that were heard at a trade show, nor for deciding the validity of whether or not a microphone will work well in a real recording environment based on hearing it on a convention room floor. The thread was started because of the bullshit practice of trying to bullshit potential customers. Some people use salesmanship and others use deception. I prefer salesmanship.

Bashing the people of Gearslutz (potential customers) is in bad taste.


David Reitzas : Mixer - Engineer - Producer

[Jules]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

I'm not defending "level mismatching"

But that's what this thread is about..

[dbjp]

Are most people that turn up at shows amateurs? Surely most people would check gain settings?
Obviously not good practice to mismatch levels but who are these manufacturers trying to fool? Non-experienced teenagers?

[elambo]

I for one would love to read a more constructive and important topic from Dave if he's going to commit time to writing at GS. Agreed, raising the level of your product in a comparison is "cheating," but this thread won't stop it, and anyone who buys a mic based on an AES demo is asking for trouble.

What about your other impressions of the show? Maybe some hot new products, some must-haves you've discovered? Some mixing tips from your own personal stash? A hilarious story from past sessions?

[TheChariot]

Originally Posted by dbjp

Are most people that turn up at shows amateurs? Surely most people would check gain settings?
Obviously not good practice to mismatch levels but who are these manufacturers trying to fool? Non-experienced teenagers?

Bingo. The youth is a key customer. Hell, you should see when the guys from Genelec come into my school. They're nice as hell and extremely knowledgeable, but the reality of the situation was that they were trying to sell speakers to all of the new people entering the industry.

There's a huge student program at AES (that I took part in.... sort of) and with that comes the potential for future customers. Honestly, many of them can be sold without tricks. Just TELL the kids what to think. "Doesn't our mic sound warmer and punchier and clearer!?!?!"

Even if you're not intending to pull a "trick" on the listeners, you're still guilty of not having your shit together. Test your demo rig and make sure it doesn't make you look suspect or foolish. Isn't that like.... something you'd do instinctively? Especially knowing that some really brilliant ears are in the room with you.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

So you can hear it. NOT USE IT!!! There is a difference. Are you recording trade show floors? If not, than I see no real way to figure out the REAL response of these microphones with regard to the sources your trying to record, and the room your recording them in. I'm not defending "level mismatching" but if the amplifier from the microphones offers more gain, than it offers more gain. Its as simple as that.

Bashing microphones you heard on the trade show floor is dumb. Use it on your source, in your room and then decide.

YOU ALL should know that. Oh wait, this is Gearslutz, I forgot where I was.

Funny,

Hurling insults at the bands in my studio(s) never worked well for me either: I just don't know why...

I don't think we'll be doing any business together, nor will I consider spending at your shop, thanks. tutt