PT8 - Digi releases info!

[peeder]

Go back to Dijkstra's Postulate:

Any computing problem can be solved by adding a level of indirection.

Software is endlessly plastic. It's all code. There's no way you could write a software engine that would take significant resources to add an automatic delay compensator to.

Consider this: how do you insert a Delay plugin to an audio stream? There must be an insert point. If there are five there can be ten, and there can be eleven. So insert a delay into that audio stream, with the value computed by the compensator. Done.

What they call DAE and what they call DAW is an actuarial concern. It will likely be vastly harder to write a compensator for the TDM hardware than for the LE software, due to possible limitations of that hardware implemenation vs. a general-purpose CPU. But they did write one for TDM (albeit somewhat compromised).

Name me a Digi engineer who says s/he can't write ADC for LE in under a week. Name one. I want names. Real names. I want someone to sign to this. Who is going to say they can't do it?

I would be too embarassed to say I couldn't do it. No one would believe me. I wouldn't want people to Google that when I looked for my next gig.

(And to tell the truth, they are probably suffering about this like I am. It's not their fault.)

[Sonic Nomad]

Originally Posted by peeder

Go back to Dijkstra's Postulate:

Any computing problem can be solved by adding a level of indirection.

Software is endlessly plastic. It's all code. There's no way you could write a software engine that would take significant resources to add an automatic delay compensator to.

Consider this: how do you insert a Delay plugin to an audio stream? There must be an insert point. If there are five there can be ten, and there can be eleven. So insert a delay into that audio stream, with the value computed by the compensator. Done.

What they call DAE and what they call DAW is an actuarial concern. It will likely be vastly harder to write a compensator for the TDM hardware than for the LE software, due to possible limitations of that hardware implemenation vs. a general-purpose CPU. But they did write one for TDM (albeit somewhat compromised).

Name me a Digi engineer who says s/he can't write ADC for LE in under a week. Name one. I want names. Real names. I want someone to sign to this. Who is going to say they can't do it?

I would be too embarassed to say I couldn't do it. No one would believe me. I wouldn't want people to Google that when I looked for my next gig.

(And to tell the truth, they are probably suffering about this like I am. It's not their fault.)

Haha.. Peeder first you said someone familiar with the engine could do it in a couple hours and now you're giving them a week. LOL

.. and as too solving problems through via adding a level of indirection or as I'd call it compromise, is not a path I'd like to see taken in this case.

It would be interesting to know Digidesign's official view on the ADC issue in Le.

There are some great features in 8.0 and it's a real pity for me but life goes on.

[peeder]

I can sit here and give lessons in how to write an automatic delay compensator. I can teach you how to do it with pings for hardware, and just for hardware, for maximal efficiency. I can improve upon pings with frequency/phase-based timing determinations. I can teach you how to discover network topologies empirically and weight and compensate them. I can sit here and design the most thorough delay compensator ever conceived, and post it all for anyone to take and implement.

But all I really want is to get my gaaddamn music work done! This is the only thing I want in a Pro Tools 8. Every other DAW has it and it's ridiculous to resist the obvious. I could code the entire thing in pseudocode and post it in a small gearslutz comment.

And I keep going in that direction because I want to embarass digidesign so severely they find it untenable to do this to me, and the rest of us. The music press should get ahold of this. And the shareholders should get ahold of it. Why have you crippled your largest-volume product??? All stakeholders want to know.

I frankly would love it if at committee meetings at these companies they actually said, "Well, if we leave that bug in there, there are people at gearslutz that will roast us over the coals for it." And believe it or not, I've sat at many of those tables, and I've heard those arguments from time to time, and they do make a difference. There are digi engineers reading what I'm writing here and they are really mad. Not at me, but mad at being made by their managers to look lame.

It's lose-lose-lose. It could so easily be win-win-win. Should I sit on my thumbs and look stupid, or do what I can about it?

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by peeder

I can sit here and give lessons in how to write an automatic delay compensator. I can teach you how to do it with pings for hardware, and just for hardware, for maximal efficiency. I can improve upon pings with frequency/phase-based timing determinations. I can teach you how to discover network topologies empirically and weight and compensate them. I can sit here and design the most thorough delay compensator ever conceived, and post it all for anyone to take and implement.

But all I really want is to get my gaaddamn music work done! This is the only thing I want in a Pro Tools 8. Every other DAW has it and it's ridiculous to resist the obvious. I could code the entire thing in pseudocode and post it in a small gearslutz comment.

And I keep going in that direction because I want to embarass digidesign so severely they find it untenable to do this to me, and the rest of us. The music press should get ahold of this. And the shareholders should get ahold of it. Why have you crippled your largest-volume product??? All stakeholders want to know.

I frankly would love it if at committee meetings at these companies they actually said, "Well, if we leave that bug in there, there are people at gearslutz that will roast us over the coals for it." And believe it or not, I've sat at many of those tables, and I've heard those arguments from time to time, and they do make a difference. There are digi engineers reading what I'm writing here and they are really mad. Not at me, but mad at being made by their managers to look lame.

It's lose-lose-lose. It could so easily be win-win-win. Should I sit on my thumbs and look stupid, or do what I can about it?

You talk about it like it's a technical hurdle. But they are Digidesign, they can code anything they want. It's not a question of code.

They don't want you to have it, Peeder. Can't you see that?

LE is LE and HD is HD and that is the way Digidesign likes it.

- c

[author]

Elastic pitch!

[peeder]

#ifdef HD_ONLY

#define DELAY_COMP

#endif

[author]

Well, then I saw the Elastic Pitch vid...

[wildpark]

i just looked at the digi 8 video

i find that i have enouth elastic power with celemony melodynes upcomming version wich is a around 100 dollar upgrade for me !

meaby the new track collor option is a improvement.

they only fine thing is track comping better displayed !


BUT

1. iam on 10.5.1 everything is working ok here if i not using wrapped plugs !


2. i have too wait for all 3th party companys too upgrade for protools 8

and some manufactors are tired too go the digi homemade upgrade politik

for just like nothing .


3. if a upgrade is 10-20 dollar in most chases i dont close my walled

but digi charge everytime 70 too 200 dollar !!!



STOP THAT DIGI !

what can i buy for 200 dollar or 600 dollar for 3 upgrades ! (protools 6.8 too 7.4)

also where is the 8 processor upgrade my protools hd accel pcie is running on a BRAND NEW

mac octo !

[wildpark]

I use more and more rtas plugs wich are avalible at au plugs.

At some point i might change too a 3th party sequenzer if digi

not reacts

that from a digi mix-hd user and new system buyer

since 10 years

[David-Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Sonic Nomad

+1 What's this got to do with anything. As I've said before it's probably a feature we will never see because it can't be implemented into the DAE!

This is like "a driving wheel is a feature that can't be implemented into this car"

Come on, I am a software engineer for 7 years. this statement is clear and utter bull****
no offense

[lllubi]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

You talk about it like it's a technical hurdle. But they are Digidesign, they can code anything they want. It's not a question of code.

They don't want you to have it, Peeder. Can't you see that?

LE is LE and HD is HD and that is the way Digidesign likes it.

- c

you dont change your CEO until you have big troubles
their new marketing campaign lost its credibility already with the invention of Mellowmuse ATA

i dont think they are happy about ATA
Peeder and Gary seem to listen more to their users than their managers

i think we will see ADC very soon or we will see new marketing managers
very soon

[SKyflash34]

Originally Posted by Sonic Nomad

The following is an assumption;
The way I see it is the DAE is a "soft" version of TDM.
DAE is at the core of the LE system so all the other components are written around it.
I get the feeling that DAE is not just a driver that allows the app to talk with the interface but that is the CORE of Le the system - take it away and all you left with is a GUI.

And this why without a TOTAL rewrite or new engine we will never see features like;
ADC
Bounce to disk.
3rd party sound card support - although they did this with M-Audio but seems the implemented this into the engine coding. So for third party support they'd have to write the implementation into the engine itself.

Dunno if this makes sense to anyone but this is how I figure it to be.
As I said this is an assumption. Flame on!

I totally agree with you Nomad. In fact I've stated similar thoughts in the AES thread.

BTW I should point out to others not quite understanding what DAE actually stands for.

Digidesign Audio Engine

I think others are comparing it to Core Audio and ASIO. BTW does anyone remember
Digidesign had HTDM? Notice how that plugin format disappeared? What does it
stand for? Host Time Division Multiplexing. This was dropped because computers
were still too slow compared to the new cards that were coming out. They decided
to put more focus into RTAS and TDM. I found this page.

HTDM Q & A

Of course I've never used a TDM system and I could be wrong. Maybe some PT
veterans can chime in about this HTDM thing. It seems to have been different than
RTAS even though it was host based as it would have to integrate with TDM when
running both in the same session.

[Sonic Nomad]

All nice having 128 tracks and the ability to mix 7.1 on Le but with NO ADC as a feature in the Digidesign Complete Production Toolkit.

..and it will only set you back $1,995.00

I've been trying real hard to stay positive out Digidesign but it's starting to get pretty difficult to maintain this.

[AnonJack]

here's a great video!

Pro Tools 8.x: New User Interface and Brief Overview on Vimeo

no adc, but again as ive posted before, ive never really needed it. im still having trouble understanding when it is needed? could someone explain? i do music mixes only, but have never needed it. is this only with certain plug ins?

question: does the elastic pitch give you reference points like melodyne? to pitch it to A, C, etc...or is it just a knob?

[SoundEng1]

Originally Posted by Sonic Nomad

All nice having 128 tracks and the ability to mix 7.1 on Le but with NO ADC as a feature in the Digidesign Complete Production Toolkit.

..and it will only set you back $1,995.00

I've been trying real hard to stay positive out Digidesign but it's starting to get pretty difficult to maintain this.

$1995.99, ********!

[peeder]

Originally Posted by AnonJack

no adc, but again as ive posted before, ive never really needed it. im still having trouble understanding when it is needed? could someone explain? i do music mixes only, but have never needed it. is this only with certain plug ins?

Delay Compensation in Pro Tools - FREE Video Tutorials!

[Sonic Nomad]

Originally Posted by AnonJack

no adc, but again as ive posted before, ive never really needed it. im still having trouble understanding when it is needed? could someone explain? i do music mixes only, but have never needed it. is this only with certain plug ins?

Certain plugins will take longer to pass the signal through their process and this will simply result in the audio being a bit late. This will differ from plug-in to plug-in.
Some plug-ins like MCDSP's AC-1, AC-2 and Channel G will have 0 samples latency. Some of the waves plugs will only have several samples of latency and others Revolver will have about 1024 samples of latency.
If you are not aware of this and you mix using various plug-ins and buses chances are you're not happy with your mixes.
Event the buses in Le will introduce latency. Check it out by recording a percussive sound from one track to another via a bus and then zoom in and see how far out of sync the two are.

[AnonJack]

Originally Posted by Sonic Nomad

Certain plugins will take longer to pass the signal through their process and this will simply result in the audio being a bit late. This will differ from plug-in to plug-in.
Some plug-ins like MCDSP's AC-1, AC-2 and Channel G will have 0 samples latency. Some of the waves plugs will only have several samples of latency and others Revolver will have about 1024 samples of latency.
If you are not aware of this and you mix using various plug-ins and buses chances are you're not happy with your mixes.
Event the buses in Le will introduce latency. Check it out by recording a percussive sound from one track to another via a bus and then zoom in and see how far out of sync the two are.

thanks for the info. i will definitely check that out. i have not used plugs like revolver before...thanks again though.

anyone have an asnwer to my question about elastic pitch?

[noiseflaw]

So it's Pro Tools 8 eh?

$2000 for just 128 tracks


and



no



ADC



Same old Digi - One step forward 2 steps back.


Wow! (not).

[Studio217]

What is Digi thinking charging $2K for features found in all other $400-$500 programs, oh I almost forgot those other programs ALL have ADC. The sad thing is people will be dupped into paying this OUTRAGEOUS price for something thats already included in any other native DAW on the market just because of it's name, Digi will continue to rob people until the customers, who in fact write their pay checks, stand up and say NO MORE, $2000 is STUPID and everyone should consider this before they buy into this load of crap.

[Animus]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

You talk about it like it's a technical hurdle. But they are Digidesign, they can code anything they want. It's not a question of code.

They don't want you to have it, Peeder. Can't you see that?

LE is LE and HD is HD and that is the way Digidesign likes it.

- c

I think it's bad for several reasons. Every other DAW out there has ADC afaik. I use Nuendo, imo it's better overall than Protools, but occasionally I have entertained the idea of getting Protools. But, I don't want to pay for HD so LE would be the only option. And if it doesn't have ADC then it's a showstopper. It's a standard feature nowadays for DAWs. What does that mean? It means Digi are losing potential sales from competitors' users, and that leaves them just repeatedly cannibalizing their existing user base which will eventually run dry.

Not including ADC in LE is petty and silly.

[GSF]

All ADC stuff aside....

what's in this new version for HD users?

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by Animus

I think it's bad for several reasons. Every other DAW out there has ADC afaik. I use Nuendo, imo it's better overall than Protools, but occasionally I have entertained the idea of getting Protools. But, I don't want to pay for HD so LE would be the only option. And if it doesn't have ADC then it's a showstopper. It's a standard feature nowadays for DAWs. What does that mean? It means Digi are losing potential sales from competitors' users, and that leaves them just repeatedly cannibalizing their existing user base which will eventually run dry.

Not including ADC in LE is petty and silly.

What I like about PT is the ease of editing. I hate having to go into another editing window for precise editing rather than being able to do it in context. Does Nuendo/Cubase allow for this kind of editing or is it more like Logic?

TIA
Edwin

[Animus]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

What I like about PT is the ease of editing. I hate having to go into another editing window for precise editing rather than being able to do it in context. Does Nuendo/Cubase allow for this kind of editing or is it more like Logic?

TIA
Edwin

Yeah you can sample accurate edit on the main page.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by AnonJack

anyone have an asnwer to my question about elastic pitch?

You have to enable Elastic time, and you grab a control point and pull up a dialog. It lets you control the semitones and cents in the little dialog window (visible in videos on the Digi site). It is nowhere near as nice as melodyne with the separate piano roll window for pitch editing. They do have a separate piano roll window for Midi editing in PT8, however.

It doesn't have anywhere near the cool and advanced features of Melodyne either. It's purely a convenience item (but yes it is convenient). I was not able to evaluate sonics over those miserable M-audio speakers they use of course.

[severe]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

You talk about it like it's a technical hurdle. But they are Digidesign, they can code anything they want. It's not a question of code.

They don't want you to have it, Peeder. Can't you see that?

LE is LE and HD is HD and that is the way Digidesign likes it.

- c

Hmm.. it's been a while. Nice to see the familiar names and certainly some familiar topics.

But for crissakes, let it go with the ADC sh*t already.

[author]

Originally Posted by peeder

You have to enable Elastic time, and you grab a control point and pull up a dialog. It lets you control the semitones and cents in the little dialog window (visible in videos on the Digi site). It is nowhere near as nice as melodyne with the separate piano roll window for pitch editing. They do have a separate piano roll window for Midi editing in PT8, however.

It doesn't have anywhere near the cool and advanced features of Melodyne either. It's purely a convenience item (but yes it is convenient). I was not able to evaluate sonics over those miserable M-audio speakers they use of course.

What about the 4 octave transposition claim?

And do you think Elastic Pitch can transpose vocals more than the usual 2-3 semitones wihtout unbearably weird artifacts?

[TornadoTed]

Originally Posted by Animus

I think it's bad for several reasons. Every other DAW out there has ADC afaik. I use Nuendo, imo it's better overall than Protools, but occasionally I have entertained the idea of getting Protools. But, I don't want to pay for HD so LE would be the only option. And if it doesn't have ADC then it's a showstopper. It's a standard feature nowadays for DAWs. What does that mean? It means Digi are losing potential sales from competitors' users, and that leaves them just repeatedly cannibalizing their existing user base which will eventually run dry.

Not including ADC in LE is petty and silly.

Pretty much my exact situation.

Happy Nuendo user, tempted by Pro Tools because of compatibility and familiarity to outside producers and engineers, HD IMHO too expensive, interested in LE and will stay away because of no ADC!

I wander how many 100's of people are in this same position, that 100's of potential sales gone Digidesign.

[Animus]

This shit is hilarious.


*************************************************************

[noiseflaw]

OMG!

I have not laughed so much for a long long time.

What can I say....


Genius.