powercore 6000

[Max headroom]

Originally Posted by BrianT

I have a real 6000 and I also have the MD3 algo on a PoCo. And of course, I've compared them using all digital I/O on the 6000 to the same computer as the was PoCo housed in.

Not the same. Hardware 6000 is definitely better. Asked TC about it at the last AES show, and they confirmed that, though no one had to confirm it for me to hear the difference.

Sorry to be a groove buster. The PoCo 6000 algos may be close, but no cigar.

Ok .... the phase reversal should do the trick

I know that VSS3 has modulation in it , but MD3 comparison could be done ?

Why don’t You put 10 sec of some song with same ( extreme ) setting of MD3 ( PoCO ant TC M6000 ) and then we do a phase reversal ?

That would put the end to this discussion , and if there is any difference , TC will get some angry posts


Cheers


Max

[grassrootking]

Could the AD/DA have anything to do with any differences ?

[Max headroom]

Originally Posted by grassrootking

Could the AD/DA have anything to do with any differences ?

Not if TC M6000 is digitaly connected


Cheers


Max

[macleodgrant]

i really don't understand why there would be any difference. they use the same processors, it's the same software and it's working at the same bit depth, etc.

what gives?

[dstroyallmnstrs]

I'm trying to understand why someone would get this over the Reverb4000 at this price point.

[TheSweetener]

Originally Posted by dstroyallmnstrs

I'm trying to understand why someone would get this over the Reverb4000 at this price point.

Total Recall?
8 VSS3 reverbs instead of one?

[jbuzz]

Originally Posted by dstroyallmnstrs

I'm trying to understand why someone would get this over the Reverb4000 at this price point.

MD3? Unwrap? Brickwall Limiter

[Max headroom]

Originally Posted by TheSweetener

Total Recall?
8 VSS3 reverbs instead of one?

16 VSS3 on x8


Cheers


Max

[dstroyallmnstrs]

I can't say any of those are compelling reasons to me. Particularly since I have a Mk II already and if I really needed MD3 or Unwrap I could get them.

I also can't see why I'd ever need to use more than one instance of VSS3 at a time. Perhaps my workflow is significantly different? Do people really keep everything wet instead of applying the effect and moving on to the next thing? Sure I adjust it if the mix isn't exactly what I want but I don't keep all my plugins active.

[macleodgrant]

i for one am using either VSS3 or Classic Verb and i use approximately 6 reverbs in a mix

1 for main vox
1 for snare
1 for remaining drums
1 for general ambience
1 for guitars
1 for harmonies

the X8 gives me more than enough power for this at very high quality

[Tube World]

So if someone said you had to choose over the Powercore 6000 or the TC 4000 which one would you choose and why? I know you would not get the VSS4 with the 6000, but with being able to have multiple reverbs, saved settings etc, is the VSS4 that much better that it would make you choose the 4000 over the Powercore 6000? The best reverb I have is the Waves IR1 and the reverbs in Samplitude. Not bad, actually pretty good sounding reverb, but I am tempted about the Powercore 6000.

[1979]

Originally Posted by Tube World

So if someone said you had to choose over the Powercore 6000 or the TC 4000 which one would you choose and why? I know you would not get the VSS4 with the 6000, but with being able to have multiple reverbs, saved settings etc, is the VSS4 that much better that it would make you choose the 4000 over the Powercore 6000? The best reverb I have is the Waves IR1 and the reverbs in Samplitude. Not bad, actually pretty good sounding reverb, but I am tempted about the Powercore 6000.

I am a samplitude user, and I have owned a pcm70 and a tc m3000 (vss3). I could n't imagine needing many instances of vss3. vss3 is a good versatile algorithm for live use, never really found it useful for studio stuff except small rooms for drums. Lately I've been digging altiverb and have been slapping samplitude's corvex plugin across the altiverb return to modulate the tail a bit.

For my money, Variverb, and corvex have some excellent reverb presets that are capable of rivaling vss3, breverb etc.

You may want to check out the new aether reverb plugin. It is very much a vss3 rip off and sounds pretty good for what it is.

cheers

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Tube World

So if someone said you had to choose over the Powercore 6000 or the TC 4000 which one would you choose and why? .....

I'd pick a TC 4000 in a heartbeat

in no order - my reasons:

1) it just works - with ANY DAW, any OS, any situation. I turn it on and it WORKS

2) it will continue to work 5 or 10 years from now! Powercore card probably would not

3) I can use the unit in any studio - analog or digital - and with an analog console very easily

4) VSS 4 sounds AWESOME!!!! for what I sometimes do ... vss 4 is really important.

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

1) it just works - with ANY DAW, any OS, any situation. I turn it on and it WORKS

2) it will continue to work 5 or 10 years from now! Powercore card probably would not

3) I can use the unit in any studio - analog or digital - and with an analog console very easily

agree. a powercore 6000 is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. I'm done with firewire at the moment till until the future gets a bit more clear as to what's actually happening with it. apple's recent moves are certainly worrying, for example. spending a couple hundred on a firewire device is fine, but a couple grand feels like a risky bet at this point in time unless I have a LOT of work lined up in the very near future!

[dstroyallmnstrs]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

i for one am using either VSS3 or Classic Verb and i use approximately 6 reverbs in a mix

1 for main vox
1 for snare
1 for remaining drums
1 for general ambience
1 for guitars
1 for harmonies

the X8 gives me more than enough power for this at very high quality

What I typically do is print the fx and move on. What I'm asking is if people really keep it wet throughout - if so why and in what way. Of course my Mk II will do quite nicely on this front but the bulk of my time is spent on editing and mixing not redoing the fx. I'm always interested in other people's workflow.

Also for the price point I've seen it at I agree with mixerguy vis a vis the 4000.

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by terminal3

agree. a powercore 6000 is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. I'm done with firewire at the moment till until the future gets a bit more clear as to what's actually happening with it. apple's recent moves are certainly worrying, for example. spending a couple hundred on a firewire device is fine, but a couple grand feels like a risky bet at this point in time unless I have a LOT of work lined up in the very near future!

I remember reading somewhere that the new USB protocall (USB3?) is at least a couple times "faster" than FW 800 !

[Glenn Bucci]

I also agree about getting the TC 4000. However TC recognizes that the plug in reverbs are getting better and better, and many studios in the future will be replacing their boxes or not buying new boxes for software reverbs or software reverbs that will be out in the next couple of years. So TC are focusing more of the R&D on software plug ins. They are trying to work with the way things are moving and not put their head in the ground. I think if they are smart, they will offer the VSS4 as a plug in for the Powercore X and 6000. If they do, I personally will buy it myself.

However I also agree that the hardware box will be compatible with any software programs, there will be no compatibility issues, and you can take it and use it in any situation live or whatever. So the software reverb will not replace hardware reverb anytime soon, but it is moving in that direction.

[SWAN808]

maybe the smart thing to do would be to build a powercore box that could also act independently with regular I/O...

a la Lexicon 96...?

[kolektor1]

well useful or not, the powercore 6000 X8 just got its price slashed down to 1000 uk pounds !!!!!

who paid twice the price some month ago would be very pissed to hear such a promotion ...

http://www.dv247.com/news/Powercore ...f Price/131869

[lllubi]

Originally Posted by kolektor1

well useful or not, the powercore 6000 X8 just got its price slashed down to 1000 uk pounds !!!!!

who paid twice the price some month ago would be very pissed to hear such a promotion ...

http://www.dv247.com/news/Powercore 6000: System 6000 plugins Now Half Price/131869

hope TC is not in serious troubles and just tries to get rid of some units
before they come up with something new

[climber]

interesting... the US price then should be around $1600. 'm still seeing right around $3000 US as the going price. at $1600 that would be a steal, right?

[elambo]

Originally Posted by climber

'm still seeing right around $3000 US as the going price.

Yes, still $3,000.

I also noticed that Sweetwater claims that the Powercore6000 comes with all the SYS 6000's plugins. Isn't that false? The Powercore comes with VSS3 whereas the SYS 6000 comes with VSS4. I believe there are other differences. VSS 3/4 alone is a pretty big discrepancy in my book.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by elambo

Yes, still $3,000.

I also noticed that Sweetwater claims that the Powercore6000 comes with all the SYS 6000's plugins. Isn't that false? The Powercore comes with VSS3 whereas the SYS 6000 comes with VSS4. I believe there are other differences. VSS 3/4 alone is a pretty big discrepancy in my book.

It's not false, all the existing 6000 plug ins are in there. There's no VSS4 plug in. They are not saying all system 60000 effects are there.

[elambo]

From Sweetwater:

"It comes with all of the famous System 6000 plug-ins..."

I guess I don't understand why VSS4, and others, aren't a part of what's being suggested here.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by elambo

From Sweetwater:

"It comes with all of the famous System 6000 plug-ins..."

I guess I don't understand why VSS4, and others, aren't a part of what's being suggested here.

Exactly, it doesn't say "It comes with all of the famous System 6000 effects...", if it said that, then you'd have a point.

[elambo]

OK, I see what you're saying -- the word "plugin" refers to the TDM effects which were released from the 6000, not necessarily the entire standard palette from the SYS6000. I missed that.

[Nuno_F]

Originally Posted by elambo

OK, I see what you're saying -- the word "plugin" refers to the TDM effects which were released from the 6000, not necessarily the entire standard palette from the SYS6000. I missed that.

That's it

I suppose it's a matter of interpretation, but I interpret that as them saying that all the algorithms from the sys6000 available as a plug in are included, not that everything from the sys6000 is included.

[elambo]

Yes, I agree, the verbiage is a bit slippery. The SYS6000 that I had did not come with VSS4, so the VSS4 algorithm would be a downloaded "plugin" of sorts. Their web page mentions what's included so they're forgiven.

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by elambo

From Sweetwater:

"It comes with all of the famous System 6000 plug-ins..."

I guess I don't understand why VSS4, and others, aren't a part of what's being suggested here.

I think it's intended to reference the 6000 plugs that are available for the poco platform are all bundled with what is otherwise a poco x8, sold together as a package at what one would hope/expect to be a discount from the price if all were purchased separately.

There's nothing deceptive or false about the quoted claim; it's a question of taking things in context.

[Thomas@TC]

Hey guys,

Sorry for this lengthy message, I hope this will answer some of your questions.

1)
The S6K plug-ins for PowerCore are 1:1 portings from System 6000. As said earlier in this thread, the two products use the same Freescale (formerly known as Motorola) DSPs.

In theory, a phase inverse comparison should do the trick. However, since the infrastructure on System 6000 and a DAW with plug-ins differs, there might be latency differences between the two, and therefore it might be difficult to get the two to cancel each other out.

When we do portings between products, for instance moving an algorithm from System6000 to PowerCore - or to Reverb 4000, we do all kinds of measurements to make sure they sound exactly the same. So, a VSS3 for System 6000 is 1:1 with VSS3 for PowerCore - or VSS3 for any other TC product.

In other words, we make sure that the naming of the algorithm is true to its content - sound wise. With some implementations, it does make sense to make adjustments to the UI.

For instance, with NonLin2 Poco, we graphically show the envelope, rather than working with numbers only.

If the algorithm is the same but the UI differs too much from the original, we might decide change the naming.
For example, TapFactory is a direct port of the System 6000 algorithm named Reflector, but since TapFactory has a very different UI, we decided to not name it Reflector.

There are also examples that we add algo stuff to the plug-in version.
For instance with UnWrap (stereo to 5.1 upconversion), we decided to do a dedicated DownMix page. The DownMix page lets the user check how the upconverted 5.1 signal sounds when played back in stereo.
System 6000 users would normally use the ToolBox to do this, but since we don't have the ToolBox available as a Poco plug-in, we thought that we had to add this feature to the plug-in itself.

Bottom line is, though, that the algo always remains the same - parameter- and sound wise, and therefore you also find that the System 6000 plug-ins are preset compatible with System 6000 plug-ins for Poco (you can take any System 6000 preset and use it with the equivalent Poco plug-in).

2)
You are correct that PowerCore 6000 includes the System 6000 plug-ins, meaning the algorithms from System 6000 that is currently available for PowerCore. PowerCore 6000 does not include _all_ algorithms from System 6000, e.g. it does not contain the VSS4 or the multichannel algorithms - (except UnWrap).

Since TapFactory is based on the System 6000 Reflector algorithm, we dicided to make TapFactory part of PowerCore 6000, too.