NEW!! Digidesign C24 Controller

[obscure object]

Originally Posted by jindrich

Anyway, all this talk is sterile as Digi won't change its policies, they think they still own the market. That won't last long though. I can tell you, starting around new year Apple, Apogee and someone else (can't reveal it yet) together will bring something that will put Digi products to shame.

hey i'll take a guess : An audio interface a la Ensemble (with more pres)+ Control surface a la the mackie but better ofcourse ------> n it's gonna be mac only ------> works with apple software only (or at least integrates better with apple software) maaaainly logic n FCP ---> Control surface expandable maybe -----> "someone else": frontier designs?? they seem like good guys ) it's hard to guess here .... i've had an impression for long that apple/apoggee are the new digidesign .... not in a good way tutt .... but the quality n price should compensate for that, right? .... ok, back to real life now

[logiclust]

Originally Posted by obscure object

hey i'll take a guess : An audio interface a la Ensemble (with more pres)+ Control surface a la the mackie but better ofcourse ------> n it's gonna be mac only ------> works with apple software only (or at least integrates better with apple software) maaaainly logic n FCP ---> Control surface expandable maybe -----> "someone else": frontier designs?? they seem like good guys ) it's hard to guess here .... i've had an impression for long that apple/apoggee are the new digidesign .... not in a good way tutt .... but the quality n price should compensate for that, right? .... ok, back to real life now

frontier? really? i was imagining something more along the lines of smart av... only smaller and more apple-like. maybe an apple-digi partnership would be a killah. appogee-digi-logic use to be quite a standard combo.

[obscure object]

Originally Posted by logiclust

frontier? really? i was imagining something more along the lines of smart av... only smaller and more apple-like. maybe an apple-digi partnership would be a killah. appogee-digi-logic use to be quite a standard combo.

i have no knowledge whatsoever of smart av products .... frontier is a stupid guess i'm sure .... Does smart av provide video control products (AV)?? ... it'd make more sense if so ... motu had a video/audio interface announced (but not released) for quiet some time now ... it doesn't provide KONTROL though.

appogee-digi-logic?? ... i don't like how that sounds really ..... i'm kinda ok with apple (software) + appogee (hardware) partnership. Digi is doing both ... but i don't think it's doing it good anymore!

[logiclust]

Originally Posted by obscure object

i have no knowledge whatsoever of smart av products .... frontier is a stupid guess i'm sure .... Does smart av provide video control products (AV)?? ... it'd make more sense if so ... motu had a video/audio interface announced (but not released) for quiet some time now ... it doesn't provide KONTROL though.

appogee-digi-logic?? ... i don't like how that sounds really ..... i'm kinda ok with apple (software) + appogee (hardware) partnership. Digi is doing both ... but i don't think it's doing it good anymore!

maybe WK, Devil or euphonix, but they won't be cheap. perhaps something multitouch... jobbs doesn't like buttons for some reason. not sure how he feels about faders and knobs though.

my apogee-digi-logic 3some was just a reflection on what i've seen in studios past. digi dsp with apogee i/o and logic as the front-end. it's not really that way anymore.

[Audionaut]

I have a trackball... It's pretty cheap and between that and my keyboard (included with mac) I can access pretty much all of ProTools' functions.

[Audionaut]

I guess I could just buy and old office desk and put that between my ears and my speakers, you know, to create the same type and anomalies of reflections that a large control surface would create for me (if I had the $$$).

Remember that old, ironic quote about how "by the year 2000 computers might even be so small that they'll only take up one room of your home"

...Large format consoles & controllers are about to start receiving their ARRP newsletter.

[Goliath|Audio]

Why does everyone want Digi to fail? Is this some strange schadenfreude? Personally I think that competition is good. If we all think Digi is just sitting on thier hands, think again. tutt

Is Logic 8 Going to kill Pro Tools? I doubt it. It isn't just the guys using it that are keeping in en vouge, it is the guys paying the bills that want to see Pro Tools in the studio.

I really do want to see what Digi will do to counter Applegee.

[mitgong]

Originally Posted by Farout

I am probably not even qualified to post in this thread, but I am wondering about the Monitor section of this new unit.
One of the biggest complaints I used to hear about the Control|24 was about the monitor section. That is one of the things I would like to know. Anybody have any idea, yet?
Thank you.

Based on my AES demo: It's far more flexible, and comparable to the X-Mon in audio quality. I expressed specific concerns about the monitoring section in the ProControl, and was assured that I would not encounter the same problems with the C24.

Using the shuttle wheel for session navigation is awesome.

[Farout]

Excellent.
Thank you for your reply to my question. I appreciate you taking the time to do that.

On a side note: I don't want to see Digi to fail. I agree: a litle competition is always good .... especially for the end user!

[Duardo]

Large format consoles & controllers are about to start receiving their ARRP newsletter.

Not gonna happen...sure, they're not a necessity any more, and those single-fader devices like the Presonus FaderPort show that there is a demand for small controllers, but there will always be people who will want to have twenty-four or forty-eight faders (or more) in front of them with knobs, buttons, etc...Digidesign's Icon-series controllers are still relatively new to the market and sales are still climbing...

[Audionaut]

Originally Posted by Duardo

there will always be people who will want to have twenty-four or forty-eight faders (or more) in front of them with knobs, buttons, etc...

There will always be people that want to listen to 8-track cassettes vs. CD's, and there will always be a tiny niche market for them, but for all practical purposes they're dead and gone.
For every guy with a Studer A827 (or a beta machine, Delorean, etc), there's 10,000 kids with Acid, protools or logic on their laptops. Which market do you think the audio & electronics companies (and their investors) will cater to as we plummet into recession?
It's not better. It's not right, but it is happening.
...This coming from a summing buss and "In the Box" mixer with an SSL 4078 G+ that's been in storage for 2 years.

[jjdpro]

I think the New C24 and HD2 for 18k presents a very compelling case. This setup offers a level of professionalism that''s missing in the Middle market. And HD 2 acel is a great deal of power. Then, if you so chose, add a very powerful PC/Mac to run many RTAS plugins as well as premium TDM plugins.

[Jsx]

I really wish they would leave out the cost inducing pre-amps/convertors and create a simple 24 channel ethernet based controller for ProTools. The integration of the Control|24 with ProTools can promote workflow nicely, but I think people rarely wish to burn an extra few thousand dollars on a controller with bonus mediocre pre-amps.

[Duardo]

There are no converters in the C24, and how much do you think the preamps really add to the cost? As I understand it the idea behind the console is for it to be a replacement for an analog boards, so having at least a few preamps onboard is helpful, and I'm sure doesn't affect the cost significantly...

[Kenny Gioia]

It probably costs them another $100.00 (guessing here)

Leaving them out would have cost them having a bunch of people upgrade because they use them. They even included the silly line mixer again. lol

[Jsx]

Originally Posted by Duardo

There are no converters in the C24, and how much do you think the preamps really add to the cost? As I understand it the idea behind the console is for it to be a replacement for an analog boards, so having at least a few preamps onboard is helpful, and I'm sure doesn't affect the cost significantly...

How much it cost for them to actually build them in isn't the issue at all. It's the price they can now justify charging for the whole piece after including "16 award-winning Focusrite Class A discrete transistor-based preamps."

Many times in integrated circuits the cost of the material itself is miniscule at best; the real cost comes from the labor and subsequent marketing value of inserting bonus feature X to enable amazing capability Y. A good example of this would be alot of the current "boutique" lines of effects pedals - the Zvex SHO consists of $10 worth of circuitry, but the street price is $200 and people line up around the block to pay it. Just like how there's about $50 difference in the components of the $1,000 Great River and the $5,000 vintage nostalgia wonder pre everyone pines for. It's all marketing hype and elusive "mojo," and it often effects price in incredibly bizarre ways.

The prices of similar preamps in Focusrite equipment runs about $100 a channel, which with very basic and broad assumptions equates to a $1,600 difference. Some people just want a large and economical DigiDesign integrated control surface that works well with ProTools, and shaving even $1,000 off the cost and providing an additional control-only alternative would be enough to change a lot of minds away from the Mackie Control.

[Duardo]

The preamps in the new controller aren't Focusrite preamps, they're Digidesign's own designs...and my guess is that they are actually a smaller part of the cost than the Focusrite preamps were in the Control 24, since Digidesign no longer has to pay royalties to Focusrite for them...

There will always be features in products like this that not everybody will use, but my guess is that they've figured that they'd lose enough sales if they didn't include the preamps to justify the minimal increase in cost it takes them to add them to the board.

[Jsx]

Originally Posted by Duardo

The preamps in the new controller aren't Focusrite preamps, they're Digidesign's own designs...and my guess is that they are actually a smaller part of the cost than the Focusrite preamps were in the Control 24, since Digidesign no longer has to pay royalties to Focusrite for them...

There will always be features in products like this that not everybody will use, but my guess is that they've figured that they'd lose enough sales if they didn't include the preamps to justify the minimal increase in cost it takes them to add them to the board.

So why not create an alternate model in addition to the existing Control|24 that has a reduced price and none of the audio trinkets? Seems like a simple solution which would be easy to integrate if the pre-amps are as inconsequential as you claim.

The asking price of the former Control|24 model was about $7k. The price of the new model is projected to be around $10k, a $3,000 increase. With prices that high, I'd much rather purchase a reduced cost model with none of the utilities I don't need, provided I'm crazy enough to spend ~$10k on a new Control|24 to begin with. A difference in only a few hundred dollars can often be the deciding factor for many consumers. Why not cover both bases?

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Jsx

So why not create an alternate model in addition to the existing Control|24 that has a reduced price and none of the audio trinkets? Seems like a simple solution which would be easy to integrate if the pre-amps are as inconsequential as you claim.

Because it costs more money to manufacture two products instead of one.

Who pays for the extra cost? All of us.

If they made two models, the cheaper one would have been $10,000 and the deluxe would have been $12,000.

It doesn't save Digidesign enuff money to charge you less ($1600) for not adding those features.

Look at it like the deli giving you a $4.99 lunch special that includes a free soft drink.

The drink probably costs them 4¢ but it appears to the customer like a good deal.

But they're not going to give you the sandwich for $3.50 just because you don't want the drink.

[Jsx]

Originally Posted by Produceher

Because it costs more money to manufacture two products instead of one.

Who pays for the extra cost? All of us.

If they made two models, the cheaper one would have been $10,000 and the deluxe would have been $12,000.

It doesn't save Digidesign enuff money to charge you less ($1600) for not adding those features.

Look at it like the deli giving you a $4.99 lunch special that includes a free soft drink.

The drink probably costs them 4¢ but it appears to the customer like a good deal.

But they're not going to give you the sandwich for $3.50 just because you don't want the drink.

True, but it's definitely a pain.

It's frustrating when many companies seem aware of a general demand for a product but choose to address it through convoluted means. I can't be the only person who is still waiting for an affordable large-scale controller with metering capabilities and none of the extraneous frivolties. The Mackie Controls can show hindersome limitations, and the Control|24 is becoming prohibitively expensive at $10,000. I feel like there's a very sparse middle ground between the two that isn't covered yet carries worthy demand.

It's easy to become concerned when the price of controllers seem to be going up exponentially, yet the disconnect between the high and low ends is growing even greater. I just hope some wonder company comes out with a 24 or 32 channel controller console that is both reasonably priced and capable enough to handle various software and workflows.

[Duardo]

It's already here...but who's buying it?

[trock]

i bought it and its very well built, superbly supported, integrated into sonar extremely well, and i find it much nicer on all 3 of these levels then the mcu and 2 xt's i had

leap of faith? yes, but this one panned out big time.

i also have a friend with a new mcu pro and 2 xt's, the m24 is again on all 3 levels better IMHO

build quality
support
integration

200 bucks more then a new mcu pro and 2 xt's, worth a look if you are about to pull the trigger on the mackie's

[six_wax]

Pro Tools integration is sort of the key selling point on the C24... Just like ICON, Ctrl24, ProCtrl...

[audiothings]

Originally Posted by jjdpro

...And HD 2 acel is a great deal of power...

respectfully, i disagree. my experience suggests that hd2 is hardly enough to run a 30 track session using any and all plugins of choice. please correct me.

[barryjohns]

Originally Posted by audiothings

respectfully, i disagree. my experience suggests that hd2 is hardly enough to run a 30 track session using any and all plugins of choice. please correct me.

I have never come close to pushing my HD2 accel pcie.

[musicmind11]

Originally Posted by bongo

You are , of course entitled to your opinion. But obviously you don't understand where some of us are coming from.

I'll speak for myself. I have absolutely no desire to ever own or work on an analog mixing board again. I've been in this business for 26 years. I've gone through many different set ups, from 1/2" 8 track to 2" 16 track to 2" 24 track (which I still have) to A-Dat to ProTools.

I like working in ProTools. I have no problem with the way it sounds. If I did, I'd be using my 2". I run a successful studio. I don't make the big bucks to be able to afford an Icon or even a D-Control. I'm happy with my Control 24, but I'm successful enough with my studio, that I can afford to upgrade, even if it's not the perfect controller. For you to compare it to a Soundcraft PA board is totally absurd. Can you use GML EQ's on that? How about Sony Oxford or a URS API or Neve?

Learn to live in the real world

WHAT??? so you cant insert a neve,api,wonder audio into the signal path on the soundcraft?? I too wouldnt need the bigger soundcraft but at the same time for the $$ you do get more as far as build quality and product... I can buy a $500 mackie hui and have a decent control surface.. granted Id much rather mix my digital stuff on a nicer c24 but not for $9500 more. Id rather get a shit load of outboard.. some of it being the REAL neves, API's etc. not plugins =) but to each his own for sure!!

[bforest4]

sweetwater.com has hi res photo's!

[s0nguy]

i dont like it.

the faders so far away from the channel name is a hard pill to swallow.

-s0nguy

[sevendaysoff]

i'm not jumping on this train.. about $5000 overpriced imo (but thats just me, not downing any of your opinions)

digi will create a super-all-in-one system, similar to the radar on meth. it will be self contained elimnating the need for mixed compenents (computer, cards, interfaces) .. it probably won't have a control surface as they will keep this market open for users of other versions.

hopefully by doing this they will eliminate the LE line and just stick to mboxes, as well as begin to offer a native solutions containing ADC.


my forecast...

[LoopQuantum]

Originally Posted by obscure object

hey i'll take a guess : An audio interface a la Ensemble (with more pres)+ Control surface a la the mackie but better ofcourse ------> n it's gonna be mac only ------> works with apple software only (or at least integrates better with apple software) maaaainly logic n FCP ---> Control surface expandable maybe -----> "someone else": frontier designs?? they seem like good guys ) it's hard to guess here .... i've had an impression for long that apple/apoggee are the new digidesign .... not in a good way tutt .... but the quality n price should compensate for that, right? .... ok, back to real life now

I'm guessing This may tie in perhaps?

http://euphonix.com/artist/