Anyone Thinking of Getting into TDM Instead?

[oceantracks]

Just wondering if due to the lower price of cards now, anyone without the cash to go HDX is now considering putting together a more modest TDM system until later. I'm seriously considering it as it would allow my 2008 Mac Pro to live on a bit longer and an HD2 would be fine for my music production needs for now...

Just curious..

TH

[Killah_Trakz]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

Just wondering if due to the lower price of cards now, anyone without the cash to go HDX is now considering putting together a more modest TDM system until later. I'm seriously considering it as it would allow my 2008 Mac Pro to live on a bit longer and an HD2 would be fine for my music production needs for now...

Just curious..

TH

This is exactly where I'm heading myself, and from what I hear the new cards require you have a specific model of Mac pros!!!

I thought a pci-e was a pci-e but now I hear about chipsets and blah blah.

[DimaK415]

Only reason this would be a bad idea is because you are buying into a technology that has a planned (and announced) obselecense of 1 year, tops.


Just know that you will be on TDM with TDM plugins, and on 10 until you decide to upgrade. I would just use that money to invest into a beastly Native or an HDx system. Just my 2 cents.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by DimaK415

Only reason this would be a bad idea is because you are buying into a technology that has a planned (and announced) obselecense of 1 year, tops.


Just know that you will be on TDM with TDM plugins, and on 10 until you decide to upgrade. I would just use that money to invest into a beastly Native or an HDx system. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah you're probably right. But Native...no. Been there, sold that

HDX or bust I suppose...

[DimaK415]

On the other hand, when PCIe rolled out, there was a frenzy for PCIx and Magma Chassis. But that was years ago, with the same specs for the same price. Doesn't seem worth it, but there seems to be no happy medium between anything and HDx. I preordered Apollo, so there is a DSP alternative that will run with upcoming versions of PT and other DAWs. Whats the objective?

[Joe Porto]

I'm in the same boat...2008 MP w/ HD card isn't cutting it with some of the newer, processor intensive plugins, but don't want to spend premium money on a 1.5 year old "new" Mac Pro. Thing is, for the money people are still asking for a HD Core card, I could buy a quad i7 Windows PC for HD Native and call it a day.

[DimaK415]

Hackintosh time?

[Killah_Trakz]

Originally Posted by DimaK415

Hackintosh time?

Wish I could find someone to build it for me.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by Killah_Trakz

Wish I could find someone to build it for me.

Objective to me is having a DSP powered system. I know all about native...and...HD Native....so I realize how powerful it can be. I also know how flakey it is, and my best times have been with a DSP based HD system. Press record, done.

[barryjohns]

Unless a person needs more I/O, the Apollo is looking very good compared to a used TDM system.

I am very tempted to get one and try it side by side with my HD2.

If the conversion is decent, it's a very attractive system along with PT10.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by barryjohns

Unless a person needs more I/O, the Apollo is looking very good compared to a used TDM system.

I am very tempted to get one and try it side by side with my HD2.

If the conversion is decent, it's a very attractive system along with PT10.

Yeah looks nice Barry, but I'm so sick of "Core Audio" I just want a DSP solution. You know, some days running 60 tracks and a lot of plugs ins, next day getting "Increase Buffer Size" errors with 20 tracks. Or some other weirdness. Or messing with an intrusive "Low Latency Mixer" when tracking. Ugh.

Nothing like HD systems for pressing RECORD and getting work done.

[rashadrm@hotmai]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

Just wondering if due to the lower price of cards now, anyone without the cash to go HDX is now considering putting together a more modest TDM system until later. I'm seriously considering it as it would allow my 2008 Mac Pro to live on a bit longer and an HD2 would be fine for my music production needs for now...

Just curious..

TH

Originally Posted by oceantracks

I'm so sick of "Core Audio" I just want a DSP solution. You know, some days running 60 tracks and a lot of plugs ins, next day getting "Increase Buffer Size" errors with 20 tracks. Or some other weirdness. Or messing with an intrusive "Low Latency Mixer" when tracking. Ugh.

Nothing like HD systems for pressing RECORD and getting work done.

Certainly nothing wrong with grabbing a great deal on a TDM system,

I'm on HD3 PCIX, in a magma chasis, and to be honest this system with PT10HD is bangin, it more than suits my music production needs, plus clip gain, while others may have had it already, is smokin in PT10, (once you have it, you cant live without it) the new channel strip is excellent, disc cache, timeline cache, in native 32 bit float, extra headroom, extra delay compensation, advanced automation and more, all great.
all of the plugins are already here, (especially waves), but I still have the advantage of being able to work or mix in HD Native if I want.

Whats more exciting to me is the future of native, its really not bad now, I've done some mixes that have come out great, and last week I had a young engineer /producer bring me some tracks that he did on his laptop in Logic with some VI's that blew me away, it really sounds that good...

I do understand what you mean about native though, especially if you are used to TDM, in comparison its not all the way there yet but I really think the next new pro level mac, (whenever it shows up) and an apogee symphony is gonna be the turning point for me,
so for now, I can continue to track in HD TDM for a few more years, I think that this system will remain truly relevant for at least that long.

I checked out the Mix/Avid webinar today and it helped bring some clarity, HDX is definitely a gradual upgrade process, no need to rush into it until everything catches up.
PT11 64 bit is going to be the time to take a closer look at HDX.......

[RyanC]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

Yeah looks nice Barry, but I'm so sick of "Core Audio" I just want a DSP solution. You know, some days running 60 tracks and a lot of plugs ins, next day getting "Increase Buffer Size" errors with 20 tracks. Or some other weirdness. Or messing with an intrusive "Low Latency Mixer" when tracking. Ugh.

Nothing like HD systems for pressing RECORD and getting work done.

Were you using HD native ie the PCIe card? Or running a native license via core audio?

I just did an experiment using core audio for HD running natively (with my license from TDM HD 10) and man it was a disaster. I'm thinking the actual HD-Native cant possibly be that bad...but now I'm a little lost. Went back to the old HD rig and found out that (strangely) the same system will run HD natively (via FW core audio) much better when the old PCI cards are in there. Anyway just curious if your bad experience was with the PCIe HD native, and if so on what computer? Thanks-

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by RyanC

Were you using HD native ie the PCIe card? Or running a native license via core audio?

I just did an experiment using core audio for HD running natively (with my license from TDM HD 10) and man it was a disaster. I'm thinking the actual HD-Native cant possibly be that bad...but now I'm a little lost. Went back to the old HD rig and found out that (strangely) the same system will run HD natively (via FW core audio) much better when the old PCI cards are in there. Anyway just curious if your bad experience was with the PCIe HD native, and if so on what computer? Thanks-

I was using HD Native. Sold it. Do MUCH better with the CPTK and a Duet or Mbox. Go figure. Go to the DUC and take a look at the HD Native threads, with one guy sending his back and sticking with TDM. Some people have a great time with it, some not so much. When I had it I did some fairly involved mixes and it was fine. Logic HATED it. I mean hated it. Weird noises, artifacts, quit, relaunch Logic, fine, then "Can't Sync Audio and Midi" messages...ugh. Long as I stayed in PT it was OK. But it still threw up error messages too much for my liking. And apparently it's still doing that for people even with newer CPUS (mine is a 2008 Harpertown). So it wasn't just my Mac.

I'm saving my pennies for HDX. It would be heaven not to mess with buffer sizes, 3rd party zero latency mixers, etc, etc.

I know there are a lot of people saying "I just did a mix of 200 tracks with 500 plug ins and my CPU was half asleep." I too have done big mixes with core audio. But it is not dependable IMHO, and I believe I will be one happy guy if I can swing just ONE HDX card

TH

[UncleBubba]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

Yeah looks nice Barry, but I'm so sick of "Core Audio" I just want a DSP solution. You know, some days running 60 tracks and a lot of plugs ins, next day getting "Increase Buffer Size" errors with 20 tracks. Or some other weirdness. Or messing with an intrusive "Low Latency Mixer" when tracking. Ugh.

Nothing like HD systems for pressing RECORD and getting work done.

yes very true...Apollo an alternative to HD(X)????...I don't think so...a firewire box is a firewire box...I like them just fine...get good work done, but they are NOT an alternative to HD.

I was on the same fence and grudgingly bought an HDX...was happy with 24 bit TDM...even though I barely have any DSP plugs...because none exist yet...yu'd have to pry this thing outta my cold dead hands!..just saying.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by UncleBubba

yes very true...Apollo an alternative to HD(X)????...I don't think so...a firewire box is a firewire box...I like them just fine...get good work done, but they are NOT an alternative to HD.

I was on the same fence and grudgingly bought an HDX...was happy with 24 bit TDM...even though I barely have any DSP plugs...because none exist yet...yu'd have to pry this thing outta my cold dead hands!..just saying.

Wow congrats! Yeah I'll bet it's pretty amazing...especially now with more delay comp and way more power. You are set for a long time!

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by DimaK415

On the other hand, when PCIe rolled out, there was a frenzy for PCIx and Magma Chassis. But that was years ago, with the same specs for the same price. Doesn't seem worth it, but there seems to be no happy medium between anything and HDx. I preordered Apollo, so there is a DSP alternative that will run with upcoming versions of PT and other DAWs. Whats the objective?

Apollo is NOT a DSP assisted tracking system. It's a native system with DSP plugins. for tracking, it's not going to be any better than a PT Native system (and possibly worse, due to the lack of PT hardware integration).

The difference here is that the PCIX PT cards are as compatible as the PCIe cards - it was just a format change (and a slight performance boost). Now, HDX is the way forward, and TDM is on the last update. We've been told that. So, whilst there's a market for used TDM systems, it's a different market to the one for used PCIX systems that existed previously.

[RyanC]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Apollo is NOT a DSP assisted tracking system. It's a native system with DSP plugins. for tracking, it's not going to be any better than a PT Native system (and possibly worse, due to the lack of PT hardware integration).

The difference here is that the PCIX PT cards are as compatible as the PCIe cards - it was just a format change (and a slight performance boost). Now, HDX is the way forward, and TDM is on the last update. We've been told that. So, whilst there's a market for used TDM systems, it's a different market to the one for used PCIX systems that existed previously.

That depends on how you use it, it has a DSP mixer and plugins that can be used to create cue mixes during tracking and take that load off the CPU and provide low latency. In that context, it is DSP assisting the computer for tracking, just like a digital mixer + native. Of course it isn't integrated into a single hardware/software solution.

[RyanC]

Originally Posted by UncleBubba

yes very true...Apollo an alternative to HD(X)????...I don't think so...a firewire box is a firewire box...I like them just fine...get good work done, but they are NOT an alternative to HD.

I was on the same fence and grudgingly bought an HDX...was happy with 24 bit TDM...even though I barely have any DSP plugs...because none exist yet...yu'd have to pry this thing outta my cold dead hands!..just saying.

Can you tell us more about the reasons why? Not that I doubt them at all, just personally juggling all the pros and cons so I would love to get some more feedback on what HDX does so well.

Did you also upgrade your computer at the same time?

Thanks

[UncleBubba]

Originally Posted by RyanC

Can you tell us more about the reasons why? Not that I doubt them at all, just personally juggling all the pros and cons so I would love to get some more feedback on what HDX does so well.

Did you also upgrade your computer at the same time?

Thanks

nope...not gonna go there on the first point...it's a very good upgrade...if you rely heavily on Waves TDM, you should wait though...

nope on the second point as well

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by RyanC

That depends on how you use it, it has a DSP mixer and plugins that can be used to create cue mixes during tracking and take that load off the CPU and provide low latency. In that context, it is DSP assisting the computer for tracking, just like a digital mixer + native. Of course it isn't integrated into a single hardware/software solution.

Fair enough. It's not a DSP assisted tracking system in that it rivals a TDM/HDX rig. I see how it could get you through a last minute overdub.

The DSP mixer isn't handling the full mix though, in the same way it does in a TDM/HDX system - it's just a submixer/cuemixer, right?

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Fair enough. It's not a DSP assisted tracking system in that it rivals a TDM/HDX rig. I see how it could get you through a last minute overdub.

The DSP mixer isn't handling the full mix though, in the same way it does in a TDM/HDX system - it's just a submixer/cuemixer, right?

That's exactly what I want to avoid. A vibe killing trip to another software interface to handle latency problems ..I just want to press RECORD and go. Hence HDX for me.

[RyanC]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Fair enough. It's not a DSP assisted tracking system in that it rivals a TDM/HDX rig. I see how it could get you through a last minute overdub.

The DSP mixer isn't handling the full mix though, in the same way it does in a TDM/HDX system - it's just a submixer/cuemixer, right?

Exactly. I guess you probably could send some tracks to the mixer in the apollo, but I don't know why you would. Obviously nothing integrates DSP and DAW and native like PT HD(x).

[T_R_S]

It seems that a lot of people are scooping up HD-TDM systems these days.

[anodecathode]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

It seems that a lot of people are scooping up HD-TDM systems these days.

Yeah, that's what I did. I sold my PCIe HD2 for 2k then picked up a Magma PE6R4, one PCI-X Core and five PCI-X Accel cards, all for only 4k on ebay!
Also upgraded to PT10 and I was one of those that jumped into an Avid I/O when it was released.

Here's my rationale for going this route -
It's gonna take a while for HDX DSP plug-in support to come around (Waves??) and no one knows the headaches that await when protools is recoded, or at the very least the memory management side is recoded for PT11(?) There are just too many questions. Why not kick back and enjoy an inexpensive HD6 until all of this gets resolved? With the Avid I/O, it sounds amazing and with PT10 and VE-Pro it's rock solid, plus I get to use all of my TDM plug-ins that have been such an integrated part of my workflow for the past several years. I'm not buying into this "it's dead technology" thing. This is a behemoth, beast of a DAW and to only have to shell out a few extra grand, thanks to prices of PCI-X cards plummeting, it's a no brainer.

I'll revisit everything in late 2015 and look forward to jumping into HDX then.

[UncleBubba]

Originally Posted by anodecathode

Yeah, that's what I did. I sold my PCIe HD2 for 2k then picked up a Magma PE6R4, one PCI-X Core and five PCI-X Accel cards, all for only 4k on ebay!
Also upgraded to PT10 and I was one of those that jumped into an Avid I/O when it was released.

Here's my rationale for going this route -
It's gonna take a while for HDX DSP plug-in support to come around (Waves??) and no one knows the headaches that await when protools is recoded, or at the very least the memory management side is recoded for PT11(?) There are just too many questions. Why not kick back and enjoy an inexpensive HD6 until all of this gets resolved? With the Avid I/O, it sounds amazing and with PT10 and VE-Pro it's rock solid, plus I get to use all of my TDM plug-ins that have been such an integrated part of my workflow for the past several years. I'm not buying into this "it's dead technology" thing. This is a behemoth, beast of a DAW and to only have to shell out a few extra grand, thanks to prices of PCI-X cards plummeting, it's a no brainer.

I'll revisit everything in late 2015 and look forward to jumping into HDX then.

you know that is a great thing to do...you got a super rocking DAW..with PT10 and Avid I/O...doesn't get much better than that right now...good on you man!

I was seriously considering that route, but for a number of reason chose to go HDX..would be just as happy with your situation....this is what people were forgetting when all that bashing was going on...it's a total win/win for HD folks...stay HD and upgrade super cheap...or buy HDX for one third the price that a new HD rig would have been...

[DimaK415]

Bottom line is you are still investing in tech that wont move. What you buy now is what you are stuck with for... well, forever. Imagine how much your 4k HD6 setup will be when you decide to sell it? 500 bucks?

You culd buy a native card, then use it to go HDx for less than 6k. So 2k more gives you ALMOST the same DSP as what you have with HD6 and you can go ahead and get 11 when you feel comfortable... and 12, and 13. TDM was around for a decade, I'm sure HDx will be too.

HDx isn't for everyone, and if you want to sit on PT10 for the next 3 years, more power to you. It's a gamble either way. PT11 could suck. It could be unstable and terrible. It could aslo be the most awesome DAW ever. Who the hell knows.

To be 100% honost, right now is a terrible time to buy anything. Apple may or may not be discontinuing the MacPro. If they don't they will have E5 chips. 16 cores people. Probably for the same price as a Mac Pro now. Avid is rolling out a huge update to PT (64 bit), and there is no way of knowing for sure how it will turn out. TDM systems will only get cheaper, so whats the rush?

PS. This is coming from a guy that sells this stuff for a living.

[gsilbers]

getting a core card and aceell hards HD3+ with magma is a great deal!

even more if you get PCIX cards.

dunno if pcix cards with magma pcie will work with PTHD 10 though.

anyone know?

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by DimaK415

Bottom line is you are still investing in tech that wont move. What you buy now is what you are stuck with for... well, forever. Imagine how much your 4k HD6 setup will be when you decide to sell it? 500 bucks?

You culd buy a native card, then use it to go HDx for less than 6k. So 2k more gives you ALMOST the same DSP as what you have with HD6 and you can go ahead and get 11 when you feel comfortable... and 12, and 13. TDM was around for a decade, I'm sure HDx will be too.

HDx isn't for everyone, and if you want to sit on PT10 for the next 3 years, more power to you. It's a gamble either way. PT11 could suck. It could be unstable and terrible. It could aslo be the most awesome DAW ever. Who the hell knows.

To be 100% honost, right now is a terrible time to buy anything. Apple may or may not be discontinuing the MacPro. If they don't they will have E5 chips. 16 cores people. Probably for the same price as a Mac Pro now. Avid is rolling out a huge update to PT (64 bit), and there is no way of knowing for sure how it will turn out. TDM systems will only get cheaper, so whats the rush?

PS. This is coming from a guy that sells this stuff for a living.

But a Mac Pro ..even a 2010...with an HDX card will last for years, no matter what Apple does with the Mac Pro....and PT 11 will be just fine, no matter how good it is when it's initially released. Bugs get fixed.

TH

[UncleBubba]

that essentially was the point that pushed me to HDX...HD is still very valid for at least 2 years, then I think your hang in on at that point...but seriously a $5000 investment over two years is super great!..and so is the HDX route