Anyone Thinking of Getting into TDM Instead?

[so serious]

Originally Posted by DimaK415

To be 100% honost, right now is a terrible time to buy anything. Apple may or may not be discontinuing the MacPro. If they don't they will have E5 chips. 16 cores people. Probably for the same price as a Mac Pro now. Avid is rolling out a huge update to PT (64 bit), and there is no way of knowing for sure how it will turn out. TDM systems will only get cheaper, so whats the rush?

PS. This is coming from a guy that sells this stuff for a living.

What he said
, right now don't buy anything, especially if you already have TDM, why buy HDX only to wait for developers to recode all of the plugins that you already have, and for a card that is no more powerful than an HD5 system that a lot of users already have. Check out the last avid webinar, even they made it pretty clear that waiting and planning your investment is the best thing to do, the three year window that Avid says they will service TDM systems is an excellent indicator of how long it's gonna take HDX to get sorted out.

[Joe Porto]

I've been checking prices of the HD core card. Still a little high IMO for a card that won't be supported in the next PT release, but if they go below $1000, I would certainly consider it. HD native is actually working very well for me though.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by so serious

What he said
, right now don't buy anything, especially if you already have TDM, why buy HDX only to wait for developers to recode all of the plugins that you already have, and for a card that is no more powerful than an HD5 system that a lot of users already have. Check out the last avid webinar, even they made it pretty clear that waiting and planning your investment is the best thing to do, the three year window that Avid says they will service TDM systems is an excellent indicator of how long it's gonna take HDX to get sorted out.

I'm not sure "a lot of users" have HD5 systems

But a lot of users have HD2 and 3, which this card would surpass.

And my bet is that HDX is going to be full of AAX plug ins long before 3 years.
Three years is simply a courtesy to the user base for the now extinct TDM platform, that's all. JMHO.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

I've been checking prices of the HD core card. Still a little high IMO for a card that won't be supported in the next PT release, but if they go below $1000, I would certainly consider it. HD native is actually working very well for me though.

Yep. Still high for something dead in the water.

[so serious]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

I'm not sure "a lot of users" have HD5 systems

But a lot of users have HD2 and 3, which this card would surpass.

And my bet is that HDX is going to be full of AAX plug ins long before 3 years.
Three years is simply a courtesy to the user base for the now extinct TDM platform, that's all. JMHO.

I honestly don't agree with the term extinct, the check that my client handed me yesterday for my mixing on the TDM rig felt very non extinct , and just to clarify, im referring to pcix which is what I have in a magma chassis, that's the best TDM deal going right now, I know that HDX is great, and as soon as I need it I'll grab it, 3 years or less, a lot riding on pt11, but back on topic, i would just add that in my experience, and from what I have observed, HD3 is plenty for the average mix and with pt10 it's still an excellent system. Clip gain had me smiling a lot while mixing yesterday........

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by so serious

I honestly don't agree with the term extinct, the check that my client handed me yesterday for my mixing on the TDM rig felt very non extinct , and just to clarify, im referring to pcix which is what I have in a magma chassis, that's the best TDM deal going right now, I know that HDX is great, and as soon as I need it I'll grab it, 3 years or less, a lot riding on pt11, but back on topic, i would just add that in my experience, and from what I have observed, HD3 is plenty for the average mix and with pt10 it's still an excellent system. Clip gain had me smiling a lot while mixing yesterday........

I know what you're saying, but just because I can type a letter to this day on a Mac SE doesn't mean it's not extinct

If future versions of PT supported TDM it might not be a bad idea, but now that they have announced that they won't, it scares me too much to invest, especially since I'm not one with a lot of TDM plugs hanging around, so I'd have to buy those too.

TH

[so serious]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

I know what you're saying, but just because I can type a letter to this day on a Mac SE doesn't mean it's not extinct

If future versions of PT supported TDM it might not be a bad idea, but now that they have announced that they won't, it scares me too much to invest, especially since I'm not one with a lot of TDM plugs hanging around, so I'd have to buy those too.

TH

I hear you, and I agree , but what if someone pays you to type that letter?!!
Seriously though, you should weigh your investment very carefully, if I didnt already have TDM, I doubt that I would invest any substantial amount of money in it now.
I think you should hold off a minute, Apple just announced Snow Lion for the summer, which usually means a new mac now thats what I'm interested in, the next mac with a Apogee Symphony I/O, Native PT11, Logic and Studio One, then I'll grab an HDX (when needed), and I'm done till 2020

[UncleBubba]

hey serious...IMHO...please do yourself a favour and don't get sucked into Apogee Logic land as a system...as pieces of a solid system, they are great...like using logic to write and apogee for conversion is great...but relying on that AS your system is asking of heaps of trouble...especially when you are used to an HD situation...really just thought I'd encourage you not to do that...I wasted a year (at least) chasing that dragon's tail...

[so serious]

Originally Posted by UncleBubba

hey serious...IMHO...please do yourself a favour and don't get sucked into Apogee Logic land as a system...as pieces of a solid system, they are great...like using logic to write and apogee for conversion is great...but relying on that AS your system is asking of heaps of trouble...especially when you are used to an HD situation...really just thought I'd encourage you not to do that...I wasted a year (at least) chasing that dragon's tail...

I'm good, not in logic much these days, i like studio one much better, already have Rosetta 800 (just upgrading to symphony), Im in protools 95% of the time, so just covering all of my bases till I go HDX. TDM is the foundation here....native is catching up though.

[UncleBubba]

They are two different animals...until somebody basically makes a card as intensive as HD (X)...or an external system (DSP) that can handle 100 times what firewire and USB can...then we're talking about the same thing...but that won't be native will it...it'll just be dedicated DSP in another form...there is a reason that DSP boxes are coming back...but yeah...cool good luck!

[sscannon]

I built my own quad core PC and put a HD3 PCIx in there after my G5 died. Excellent system, reliable, fast. Added 192s until I had the 48 outs I wanted to the console. Sounds really good, and everything just works, I can focus on the music. HDX solves problems I don't have yet. YMMV.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by UncleBubba

hey serious...IMHO...please do yourself a favour and don't get sucked into Apogee Logic land as a system...as pieces of a solid system, they are great...like using logic to write and apogee for conversion is great...but relying on that AS your system is asking of heaps of trouble...especially when you are used to an HD situation...really just thought I'd encourage you not to do that...I wasted a year (at least) chasing that dragon's tail...

I really love the sound of the Apogee. I wonder if it would be a good idea to go with the
Symphony when they are HDX compatible, then sell the "free interface" that comes with the HDX card?

[so serious]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

I really love the sound of the Apogee. I wonder if it would be a good idea to go with the
Symphony when they are HDX compatible, then sell the "free interface" that comes with the HDX card?

In regards to having a good native rig (apogee or another 3rd party):
Something that has'nt been mentioned much is the fact that if you are in the studio business today, or even if you're just a creative person collaborating with producers & writers, a lot of producers are creating records on laptops in native (often logic), and as a mix engineer it can sometimes be a problem to transfer a song from logic to protools for example and keep the same vibe, a lot of producers can get the record sounding pretty good on the laptop, with only some polish needed. Thats why I think a DSP, along with a good native system is the new standard for a pro production room.

[UncleBubba]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

I really love the sound of the Apogee. I wonder if it would be a good idea to go with the
Symphony when they are HDX compatible, then sell the "free interface" that comes with the HDX card?

That free interface...might just be the strongest part of the system!

[passmore]

Originally Posted by so serious

, and for a card that is no more powerful than an HD5 system that a lot of users already have.

After having used an HDX 2 card system for the last couple of months I can safely say I can do stuff on a single card that would have been possible on a 10 card TDM system HDX is so powerful Avid is not even saying because the nay sayers would not believe it. Once you sit down a really get into an HDX system you will wonder "WTF why would I even consider a TDM system". Once we did our first HDX system I dumped the other five TDM HD 3 systems we had faster that you say "HDX Now"
HDX Faster / more stable / intense power / totally mind blowing.

[so serious]

Originally Posted by passmore

After having used an HDX 2 card system for the last couple of months I can safely say I can do stuff on a single card that would have been possible on a 10 card TDM system HDX is so powerful Avid is not even saying because the nay sayers would not believe it. Once you sit down a really get into an HDX system you will wonder "WTF why would I even consider a TDM system". Once we did our first HDX system I dumped the other five TDM HD 3 systems we had faster that you say "HDX Now"
HDX Faster / more stable / intense power / totally mind blowing.

I certainly do not doubt that HDX is an amazing system, and its important that early adopters like yourself share the good info with the rest of us.

But for a lot of us who already have TDM rigs with all of our DSP plugins in place, apogee, benchmark converters etc.. hardware inserts setup, clients who are paying for our services, there are still no real valid reasons to spend the cash on HDX right now, just to wait for the same plugins we already have to be ported etc... (If money is no object, thats a different story of course, but it still wont get you any new DSP plugins today),
Also current TDM users will not miss out on anything as far as features go since we can turn on the HD Native engine anytime we want (providing you have any 3rd party i/o or even the headphone output from your computer just to check out the features) of PT10 Native.

Its just a big waiting game for HDX the way I see it, we're talking two years easy to even see which developers are really going to port HDX DSP, this year will be a native affair for the most part, 2013 I expect to see the new DSP offerings begin to appear, (now, I hope I'm wrong and DSP plugs show up this year) but 3rd party developers are basically all saying native first, then DSP sometime after, and not many people will believe anything that Avid says until they rebuild the trust of their customers which is going to take a minute.

Lastly the new & next generation of producers, engineers and artists are primarily working in the native format, Logic, Studio One, Reaper, Fruity Loops,Reason,Cubase and now finally Protools. 32bit float and it all sounds great, and a lot of it sounds amazing by todays standard.

My strong suggestion to current HD2-3-4-5-or 6 users is to bite the bullet and figure out a way to get into PT10HD if you havent already.
(not HD 7 to 10 though for $2500, thats just crazy!! )

I know a lot of you are pissed at Avids upgrade prices, and rightfully so, but 10HD is worth it (if you can find a less expensive way in ) even if you never by another PT update.
You can run it in native, and get a really nice 3rd party converter, and I'm telling you its gonna sound great, plus you can use all the plugs you already have, you'll have the best of both worlds, just don't listen to the people who say your system is a dinosaur, unless its your clients!!

Track in TDM (no latency) and mix in native if you like, use disc cache, 32 float and hold on to your cash for now.
If after this year Avid hasnt convinced you to stay on board, or go HDX, invest in a native alternative, for me it would be PT Native & Studio One and a 12 core or better mac. Ok Back To Work

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by so serious

IMy strong suggestion to current HD2-3-4-5-or 6 users is to bite the bullet and figure out a way to get into PT10HD if you havent already.
(not HD 7 to 10 though for $2500, thats just crazy!! )

HD 10 U/G's can be had for well under 1K.
shop around ....

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

I know what you're saying, but just because I can type a letter to this day on a Mac SE doesn't mean it's not extinct

If future versions of PT supported TDM it might not be a bad idea, but now that they have announced that they won't, it scares me too much to invest, especially since I'm not one with a lot of TDM plugs hanging around, so I'd have to buy those too.

TH

I got back into Hd1 pcie and a 192 with Pt 10 last year for less than $3k.
I think that's good to go for a couple of years at least.
Just upgrade to a faster mac or buy a couple accel cards and you're good to go. I had a $3k or so in tdm plugs but why would you have to buy tdm plugs?
Just buy the aax plugs. Most of the used tdm plugs are pretty cheap now though.
JMO but unless you do 100+ tracks and need 50 plugs on each track the pcie and old macs are a pretty decent investment.
I bet you could buy a used tdm system now and work with it for a year and buy a used hdx card after that and still come out on top money wise?
Pt 10 is the best Protools that we've ever had so, it's all good!

[barryjohns]

It all depends on what we will see n PT11 and PT12, I'm will to bet that PT11 will be impressive and PT12 over the top, AVID has to end up this way to force folks into the newer gear, otherwise, if it is not seriously compelling, there is not much for the typical user to make a person who owns TDM today to move to HDX, the heavy duty studios, it's already compelling. I don't think that the average TDM user today needs HDX today, but I may be wrong.

For my work, there is nothing compelling to me to move to HDX, interesting, but not compelling.

[FOURTHTUNZ]

One thing we know for sure is that an hdx system(mac pro, hdxcore, and 8*8*8 and Protools 10 is more powerful and about twice as expensive as a used mac pro, 192 and pcie core with pt10. The HDx also does not run TDM plugs.
I don't think the cost matters if you need that kind of system and can make it pay for itself.
I'll wager that in my area I can make just as much money with a pcie system though. I'd bet thats true in most areas.
Let's say that in 3 years time that my pcie system is worth nothing.
So what's the Hdx system worth in 3 years? Half?
If you've been having a good time and been productive does it matter?
If I remember right I paid about 10K for HD1 and a 192 back in 2002 and the HDx system is a bit more but it's what 8(10?) times more powerful?

I'd say get the system you need and start having fun!

[passmore]

Originally Posted by FOURTHTUNZ

Let's say that in 3 years time that my pcie system is worth nothing.
So what's the Hdx system worth in 3 years? Half?
If you've been having a good time and been productive does it matter?
If I remember right I paid about 10K for HD1 and a 192 back in 2002 and the HDx system is a bit more but it's what 8(10?) times more powerful?

In January I bought a HDX card for $6800.00 - sold my HD3 PCIe system for $4000.00
total upgrade cost - $2800.00.
So If I wait for 3 years and put up with no ability to upgrade top PT 11
I highly doubt HDX cards will be selling for $3400 in 3 years - But just say you are correct that is still $600 more than what I paid for an HDX card today.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by passmore

In January I bought a HDX card for $6800.00 - sold my HD3 PCIe system for $4000.00
total upgrade cost - $2800.00.
So If I wait for 3 years and put up with no ability to upgrade top PT 11
I highly doubt HDX cards will be selling for $3400 in 3 years - But just say you are correct that is still $600 more than what I paid for an HDX card today.

How did you do that when ....officially....they don't sell the HDX card without forcing you to buy an interface as well?

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally Posted by passmore

In January I bought a HDX card for $6800.00 - sold my HD3 PCIe system for $4000.00
total upgrade cost - $2800.00.
So If I wait for 3 years and put up with no ability to upgrade top PT 11
I highly doubt HDX cards will be selling for $3400 in 3 years - But just say you are correct that is still $600 more than what I paid for an HDX card today.

Hey my only point is that people seem to looking at different parts of the same elephant. Buy what you need. You paid $6800 for the card, which if it does what you need that's fine but the point I was trying to make was that these systems are not all the same, and do different things at different price points.
I believe I can run a wider array of plugs than an HDx system as I can run tdm plugs. Not all of the tdm plugs are available for hdx. And you need a newer computer to run HDx. The peeps that say, I don't care about the tdm plugs have either not heard them or not paid for them.
Yes some plugs are coming out like eventide factory, but unless you already had the tdm plug, you had to pay for it. I saved $150 as I already bought it in 2006, it works fine on my 2012 tdm pcie system, no charge.
You paid $6800 for just the card which is at least $2200 more than I paid for my whole system, which is fine if that is what you need.
The native card guys think we're nuts!

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

How did you do that when ....officially....they don't sell the HDX card without forcing you to buy an interface as well?

I think people are missing the point that these systems are not all the same and that you get what you pay for.
People are acting like TDM Plugs are all replicated in Hdx or Native, I don't thing either are there yet.
Native will not do Tdm, heat, nor no tom foolery when it comes to tracking bands.
HDx is twice the money of PCIe and will not do the plugs that pcie will do right now. HDX is fine if you have the money and have outboard fx.

[Dor]

How loud are the fans on the magma chassis units? Can one go pcix to a pcie Mac with PT 10? Is there much additional latency when using a magma chassis?

Thanks!!

Dor

[fifthflaw]

You can swap out the psu on the magma supplies to make them very quiet. Quite cheap to do too

[anodecathode]

Originally Posted by Dor

How loud are the fans on the magma chassis units? Can one go pcix to a pcie Mac with PT 10? Is there much additional latency when using a magma chassis?

Thanks!!

Dor

The Magma Chasis is fairly quiet, especially considering what it's keeping cool. I have it in a machine room right next to my control room and it can't be heard.
I'm using PT10 + Avid I/O and a Magma PCIX to PCIE with 1 core and 5 Accel cards. It's a smokin system! No latency whatsoever and no complaints whatsoever. It's nice to finally never run out of DSP.