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Logic in post-production??
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chewedrock
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#1
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Logic in post-production??

Hello all.. I'm designing sound/recording foley+ADR
for a full length film.. Really loving the workflow with
Logic.
My problem is, the director insists on working on the
production whilst there are multiple edits of the film,
which may make the final length longer. The length
for most of the scenes/cues don't change, but they're
basically working towards a final edit...
Anybody has any tips on keeping your many many
tracks locked to the scenes/cues even with the length
changing?
I know I can lock the SMPTE position, but I don't think
that helps me with this as the timecode would
change with every edit...
Any help appreciated!
Thanks in advance!
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#2
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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First don't start until pictures is locked.
2nd. Use pro-tools.
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#3
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Seconded,
If you use Pro Tools there's software to help reconform your audio if the picture changes.
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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For me it depends on how extensive the changes are--many sorts of changes can be easily managed by just putting up the new picture track, syncing the old audio to it and seeing where they fall out of sync. More extensive changes can sometimes be better done (or started anyhow) with a conforming app like EditTrace or Conformalizer or Titan. Most conforming apps are optimized for (or are exclusively for) ProTools, so you may have to bring PT into your workflow. This won't be pretty but it is doable.

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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Are you doing the final mix? If not, someone upstream is probably going to be expecting Pro Tools sessions from you!
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
First don't start until pictures is locked.
Ah that wonderland where people start working after picture lock....

heard and read about this in the books. mostly fairytales though...

;-D
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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If you use Pro Tools, there are a few options for conforming your sessions, but these generally depend on the picture editor using Avid, and even the best autoconformer is still a pretty dumb machine. If you like using Logic, I wouldn't switch to Pro Tools just to get access to some $500 add on that can conform sessions badly.

What you need is a second editor to conform stuff I would argue that majority of labor hours, and by far the majority of labor billing revenue, on studio features is attributable to conforming. It's just not possible to automate with the existing tools.*

Depending on the nature of the changes the director is making, you might benefit by working in scenes, and then only joining the scenes together when he locks the picture -- I've sometimes done this when we're feeding effects to a picture department in the very early stages of editing. You end up with tons of scenes and tons of versions of scenes, but the total amount of footage you have to change might be a lot lower, if the changes are focussed on a few scenes, or consist of entire scene lifts or re-sequencings. You also don't have to worry about rebalances, assuming that's an issue.

Lock to SMPTE won't work for you, but grouping clips may work, depending on how Logic handles automation editing -- this is where preferring rendered audio effects may make your like a lot easier, as long as you don't paint yourself into a corner when you go to mix.

* I hasten to add that, as a theoretical matter, it's completely possible to automate many aspects of conforming to picture, but even the most picture-savvy DAWs don't really do this right, because a changing picture is a pretty specialist concern. Conforming also pays the lease on my BMW.
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Last edited by iluvcapra; 26th March 2013 at 05:22 PM.. Reason: NB
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Logic in post? All I can imagine is pain, suffering, hardship, woe...

It's a great tool, but not for post.
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#9
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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This thread really is about logic:

It's not logical for your producer to make changes after they've started you on "locked pix", and expect you to do it easily or cheaply. Certainly not without both the pix editor and audio post not first agreeing on - and testing - the workflow.

Some NLEs and DAWs (ProTools and Nuendo) are friendlier than others for this. There are also some workarounds, but they require advance cooperation between pix and sound, with the producer riding the whole process.

There will be changes. That the producer didn't anticipate them, isn't necessarily your problem.
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NReichman View Post
Logic in post? All I can imagine is pain, suffering, hardship, woe...

It's a great tool, but not for post.
I've done some experiments and actually it's not that bad, particularly when you're going back and forth with an FCP, you just get hosed on interoperation with every other mixing room on the planet.
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
I've done some experiments and actually it's not that bad, particularly when you're going back and forth with an FCP, you just get hosed on interoperation with every other mixing room on the planet.
Was that a full 1 1/2 hour feature?
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
I've done some experiments and actually it's not that bad, particularly when you're going back and forth with an FCP, you just get hosed on interoperation with every other mixing room on the planet.
My first ever solo-post-experience was in Logic, back when I couldn't spring money for digitranslator. 45 minute corporate training video. Wasn't pleasant at all.

Logic's fantastic for music, but while you can do post in Logic, I wouldn't recommend it at all. Pro Tools is just so much nicer to use for everything post related.
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26th March 2013
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i learned post in Logic, it's worked for me for 14 years now.
can't blame the tools...
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26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
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No doubt you'd have an easier time of it all in PT but since you are down the road on this show in Logic you might as well keep on going. If you are doing the mix within your system the time to get things organized so you can mix easily is now--it will make conforms easier too. If you will be exporting your work to another system for the mix then you are very overdue for a discussion with whoever that is about how your tracks will work with theirs. Another thing to do is to find out how long this process of updates is going to go on, and start a discussion of how your workflow (and time and thus money) are affected by the changes. Hopefully you've had a discussion with the editors about what works best for you in this regard? As I said above, small changes, especially deletions, are easy enough to do by comparing the old and new cuts. More gnarly changes, like new audio for old picture or an extensive recut might could benefit from conforming software, but that is not a push-button operation--you have to have buy-in from the editors to get that to work too. There is no getting around a certain amount of "detective work" in conforming changes--it's just a question of limiting the number of times you are confused out of your mind, if you can. If you know some more experienced sound editors personally you might want to bring them in to consult on how to get through this all, esp if you have never done it before.

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1st April 2013
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bite the bullet.
Pro Tools.
take it from a Logic person.
chewedrock
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2nd April 2013
Old 2nd April 2013
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hey guys... sorry for this late reply. and thank you for all your replies!
anyway, they are not very big changes so far.. so im just working in cues and testing them out regurlarly if they go with the new edits. Sometimes, it seems to get messy but this is as easy as it gets with Logic i guess. cant afford to shift DAWs right now! but, now i see why Logic may not be a good idea for post...

thanks for the suggestions philip, but as you said, "it's just a question of limiting the number of times you are confused out of your mind, if you can." i totally agree!!

i do have pro tools 9 standard but without the production toolkit.
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6th April 2013
Old 6th April 2013
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Hello,

If you have Pro Tools 9, you're good to go. Except for the clip gain, which is a very nice feaure in 10. Logic has clip gain equivalent which works by simply typing gain in the parameters box of a clip, and I used it all the time while doing post for shorter movies in Logic. It works, but has it's limits. I found that Logic gets very slow when lots of regions are in the play, and can lock up with a spinning wheel when starting to play. So you get to wait 10 seconds just to hear that little change you did. The video support (performance) is sub-par compared to PT. Also, it regularly crashes when using the 'Open in External Editor' command, not at the execution, but sometimes when you return to logic, and the file gets updated, it crashes. Unfortunately this (i mean editing in external editors, not crashing) is not so easy in pro tools, as it gives every file certain unique mark and you have to work around it, and close the session when you update the file from outside. Anyway, doing the 30 minutes feature i turned to Pro tools 10 and like it very much for the job. You will learn a couple of good habits when learning the software and reading the manual (no printed manual unfortunately). Highly advised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chewedrock View Post
hey guys... sorry for this late reply. and thank
i do have pro tools 9 standard but without the production toolkit.
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