Login / Register
 
Production music woes
New Reply
Subscribe
Mundox
Thread Starter
#1
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #1
Lives for gear
 
Mundox's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 592

Thread Starter
Mundox is offline
Production music woes

I deal with a hefty amount of production music on TV shows I mix.

One question to the composers of such tracks: Why would you use patches that sound like digital clock issues/glitches? It doesn't sound good in a post production environment where such sounds are automatically associated with problems. And 100% of the time, they send engineers to a wild goose chase to find the source of the glitch.

Off my chest, now I can relax.
__________________
Vedat



Automatic volume riding for Pro Tools®
Wave Rider

Catchin' SYNC app up to 120fps recording!!
#2
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #2
Gear Head
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 43

tha_lode is offline
Heh.

I think a declicker might help you out in that situation. There is never time to find the source of the problem, only time fix it...

Reminds me I once did a doc where the score had layered in some sounds of someone walking across the floor on the floor above. Of course the director never noticed in the editing room, and I had to do some serious looping and reverb trickery to get rid of that part of the song. (it was a minimalist electronica/glitch type track)

And also why limit/maximize the tracks to 0db? It makes inserts in protools distort even if you are doing nothing but a slight highpass...

ps. Since this i my first post I guess I should say hi.
I work in post in Norway. 50/50 divided between TV stuff (mixing docs and docuseries) and features (mostly dia cleanup and ADR). I work on PT just upgraded to 10.3 and love it.
Mundox
Thread Starter
#3
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Mundox's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 592

Thread Starter
Mundox is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by tha_lode View Post
I think a declicker might help you out in that situation. There is never time to find the source of the problem, only time fix it...
What I meant to say was, we mistake these for glitches in dialogue, atmos etc. And don't expect them to find them placed in music tracks intentionally. Bad choice.

Yes, one other thing I hate is when editors use production music that has sfx (like birds chirps, surf crashes etc.) in them!

Anyway, welcome to GS!
#4
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #4
Gear Head
 
Joined: Nov 2010

Nate Hoffman is offline
I just love the tracks that begin and end with roaring hiss. As for the clicks and glitches, sometimes I wonder if those are part of certain samples within virtual instruments that nobody bothered to properly edit. They often happen at the beginning of each note played by a certain instrument.
#5
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #5
Gear addict
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 345

kevbrowne is offline
Where are you getting this production music from?
No company I know will accept tracks with sfx. As for glitchy sounding stuff,we all bought Omnisphere!
#6
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #6
Gear Head
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 43

tha_lode is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevbrowne View Post
Where are you getting this production music from?
No company I know will accept tracks with sfx. As for glitchy sounding stuff,we all bought Omnisphere!
The doc I worked on was using music from the record a Norwegian artist had released. They simply had never bothered really checking what was going on when you cranked up the music.
#7
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #7
Gear nut
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 111

inf0l is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevbrowne View Post
Where are you getting this production music from?
No company I know will accept tracks with sfx. As for glitchy sounding stuff,we all bought Omnisphere!
Regarding Omnisphere - are you sure you are following ther TOS?

tagpass posted the following in another thread here on GS:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tagpass View Post
I do music and sound design for games, and contacted Spectrasonics a while back to inquire about using Omnisphere as a sound design tool. (Elsewhere in their FAQ, it mentions that you cannot use their samples for SFX.)

The way it was explained to me was that you could use Omnisphere's synth engine for sound effects, but not any of the samples contained within the library. What's weird is that many of the descriptions of their patches say they would be great for sound design, but their license seems to prohibit it. Since I'm paranoid, I just never use Omnisphere for anything but music tracks. Ultimately, the tech guy that responded to my inquiry said something to the effect that if I wanted to use Omnisphere for sound design, I could send them any SFX I created with it, and they could decide if it was within the appropriate usage on a case-by-base basis.
#8
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #8
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: Oslo, Norway

Willeyh is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by tha_lode View Post
ps. Since this i my first post I guess I should say hi.
I work in post in Norway. 50/50 divided between TV stuff (mixing docs and docuseries) and features (mostly dia cleanup and ADR). I work on PT just upgraded to 10.3 and love it.
Welcome fellow Norwegian!
#9
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #9
Gear maniac
 
audiobob's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: Houston
Posts: 291

audiobob is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mundox View Post
I deal with a hefty amount of production music on TV shows I mix.

One question to the composers of such tracks: Why would you use patches that sound like digital clock issues/glitches? It doesn't sound good in a post production environment where such sounds are automatically associated with problems. And 100% of the time, they send engineers to a wild goose chase to find the source of the glitch.

Off my chest, now I can relax.
I dealt with this exact problem recently with a piece of custom music for a TV spot. Drove me crazy finding the glitch, come to find out it was a digital click patch that was in rhythm throughout the track. I had the client request the composer remove the patch.
__________________
Bob Vance
#10
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 519

brandoncross is offline
To ad to this, I get vinyl emulation fx on tons of production music. I mean, come on, the editors can't hear those small pops with an avid roaring right next to them in an edit bay. When they come to the mix I get,"what's that popping sound" all the time. It's basically unfixable and no one is happy. Composers please just leave out the vinyl plug in.
kdm
#11
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #11
kdm
Gear addict
 
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 448

kdm is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross View Post
It's basically unfixable and no one is happy. Composers please just leave out the vinyl plug in.
This is one reason why productions should be budgeting to hire true composers more often than not, imho; and especially on the modern media world, ones with sound design experience (and even post experience in my case).

We know what is going to work in post and what isn't. Yes, vinyl, glitch tracks are all a recipe for headaches for the editors/mixers. I never use either for this exact reason, unless it's a music-only score that specifically calls for it. The same goes for white noise sweeps, heavy low end bass/subsonic additives, etc.

Production music tracks (not all libraries, but many) are created by musicians writing simply for a general style, not an actual visual, and many will have little or no experience writing around dialog and a scene. To stand out, it's understandable to want to use any "current" sounds and ideas to get the library and then the directors, ad agencies and producers to buy their track.

In the past I've mixed projects with library cuts from major libraries, and the mixes were often too compressed, and the arrangements too busy and too broad spectrum. When you have to mix music that far under VO to make it work because it takes up too much sonic space, the emotional and dynamic impact of the piece suffers.

As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. But at the same time, it is what it is.
#12
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,586

Brent Hahn is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
When you have to mix music that far under VO to make it work because it takes up too much sonic space, the emotional and dynamic impact of the piece suffers.
In the full mix, the VO needs to be the "lead instrument," so it helps if the composer can think that way.
__________________
Brent Hahn
http://www.radioactive.la
http://www.studio-noho.net

"Sometimes I only add some delay on some portion of the snare on only one of the sides." S. Vibe 2014
#13
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 627

smurfyou is offline
The good ones have a version without FX. If I'm cutting music in I will avoid using such tracks if they don't have an FX free version.

It drives me nuts when I hear a noise in my dialogue and I know it wasn't there before....after soloing tracks I find it in the music.

This is good advice for any new and inexperienced composers out there. Think about any extraneous elements you're adding and how they'll sound under dialogue or VO. Ask yourself if they really are necessary. If you feel they are, provide a version without because chances are everyone else will feel differently.
__________________
~Will
kdm
#14
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #14
kdm
Gear addict
 
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 448

kdm is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
In the full mix, the VO needs to be the "lead instrument," so it helps if the composer can think that way.
Exactly. When writing under a VO or dialog in a custom score situation, we can write more sparsely, with perfect between-line timings, without worrying about having a paced, catchy cue to attract a director or ad agency, and stand out among the thousands of other library cuts.
Mundox
Thread Starter
#15
18th February 2013
Old 18th February 2013
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Mundox's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 592

Thread Starter
Mundox is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevbrowne View Post
Where are you getting this production music from?
No company I know will accept tracks with sfx. As for glitchy sounding stuff,we all bought Omnisphere!
If I had my choice, I would use Xtreme, Beatbox, Big Bang fuzz, etc.
But more and more I am presented with a cheaper alternative which I won't name.

As for real glitches, I think they are mostly related to bad mp3 decoding on FCP side. However, I did have a really bad case where all the tracks in the show had glitches in them, and I investigated and tracked it down to the source files of the library. It does happen.
#16
19th February 2013
Old 19th February 2013
  #16
Lives for gear
 
steins's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Lillehammer, Norway
Posts: 716

steins is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
This is one reason why productions should be budgeting to hire true composers more often than not, imho; and especially on the modern media world, ones with sound design experience (and even post experience in my case).

We know what is going to work in post and what isn't. Yes, vinyl, glitch tracks are all a recipe for headaches for the editors/mixers. I never use either for this exact reason, unless it's a music-only score that specifically calls for it. The same goes for white noise sweeps, heavy low end bass/subsonic additives, etc.

Production music tracks (not all libraries, but many) are created by musicians writing simply for a general style, not an actual visual, and many will have little or no experience writing around dialog and a scene. To stand out, it's understandable to want to use any "current" sounds and ideas to get the library and then the directors, ad agencies and producers to buy their track.

In the past I've mixed projects with library cuts from major libraries, and the mixes were often too compressed, and the arrangements too busy and too broad spectrum. When you have to mix music that far under VO to make it work because it takes up too much sonic space, the emotional and dynamic impact of the piece suffers.

As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. But at the same time, it is what it is.
So true. I know for sure that some of the time and money I've spent trying to make production music work, could easily pay for a composer. Plus, I would probably get a music mix with some dynamics left :-).

BTW, since I'm new to this forum and there are already a couple of Norwegians posting in this thread, it might be a good time to introduce myself, being a Norwegian myself :-). I'm coming from the 2-channel music mix world, but seeing more and more work in post and 5.1. I've mixed some documentaries, and just completed my first 5.1 movie score mix. I find post work to be exciting, fun and challenging, and it is so nice to be able to work with dynamic content rather than hyper-compressed music mixes. Although I love doing both. I've learned a lot reading this forum, and I hope I eventually can contribute something back.

Stein Tore
__________________
vinterlandstudio.com
#17
19th February 2013
Old 19th February 2013
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,388

mattiasnyc is offline
I agree with Mundox and Kdm and others. It's super annoying.

I did a pretty important set of ads for a company and noticed that same thing. In my case it turned out to be distortion and I couldn't figure out if it was on purpose or a result of poor processing, but the tracks were cheap so the producer had chosen to use them. After warnings about potential QC issues further down the line the producer did nothing. So out there are spots that sound like there are problems with them though it's just crappy music.

$$$
#18
21st February 2013
Old 21st February 2013
  #18
Gear nut
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Los Angeles

JohnOmix is offline
This happens to me occasionally even with top-tier libraries like Extreme. Intentional odd sounds. Worst is a clicky percussion sound (that sounds exactly like a lip pop) run through a ping-pong delay! I used to pencil them all out but Izotope DeClick is awesome for this
#19
21st February 2013
Old 21st February 2013
  #19
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 249

Max Holland is offline
Yeah I have found a lot of library stuff to have weird clicky stuff happening in it, traced back to the original source files and its still there. I figure its bad samples (likely) terrible SRC (less likely) or maybe even time compression to make a 30 second cut time out properly. I declick if I can, just astonishes me it even happens.
__________________
Max Holland
Producer / Re-Recording Mixer
NYC
#20
25th February 2013
Old 25th February 2013
  #20
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: Oslo, Norway

Willeyh is offline
I got a 3 min "informative" commercial today, set for web and a conference where the box music track contains a 1-2 second white-noise crescendo into-a-break-before-it-hits-the-chorus.

How can anyone find that musical?

And this crescendo part is used in the opening and ending of the 3 minute film.
#21
25th February 2013
Old 25th February 2013
  #21
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: San Francisco

coaxmw is online now
When dealing with composed music I usually request that the client gets the split/stem tracks of the music. It's rare that someone doesn't want to change levels or edits during the mix.
I have had tracks from commercial libraries with poor edits also, maybe a giant click in the middle of the track or a little double drum hit, it's rare but has happened every couple years.
#22
28th February 2013
Old 28th February 2013
  #22
Gear nut
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Los Angeles

JohnOmix is offline
I had a track yesterday where the toms had a really clicky attack. It was annoying to me, but the composer intended it so it stayed in. Plus there were too many to spend 20 mins declicking
#23
1st March 2013
Old 1st March 2013
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: San Francisco area
Posts: 3,358

philper is online now
On a series I mixed a few years ago there were 2 or 3 "cleared" library tracks that the editors used a lot. One of them had a lot of glitchy stuff in it and the other two had snippets of people talking. After doing lots of extra editing to make the talky tracks work w/ picture w/o the talky parts and de-clicking the clicky stuff, I asked them to stop using those tracks. They didn't--not to be mean but they would just not ever remember. So each time those tracks would come up after that I would either used one of my "remastered" versions or sub it for something else if there was no time. In this collection were also quite a few cuts with REALLY wide stereo, and others with serious phase problems between channels (like they used some really cheapo oddball processing). In one case a test mono sum managed to lose all the lead instruments. Those cuts got 'remastered" versions too. But lots of extra work....dumb, terrible composition. My rule is that the better the composer the less I have to mix their music around dialog--they are COMPOSING around the dialog, thanks

philp
Mundox
Thread Starter
#24
14th March 2013
Old 14th March 2013
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Mundox's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 592

Thread Starter
Mundox is offline
Today's flavor: Left heavy high passed white noise bursts leading into a PTC and a kick drum that resembles closing teeth.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Topic:
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
joaquin / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
15
PheelTheMusic / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
56
Chris Parsons / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
16
audioez / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
11
Inky Goddess / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
33

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.