Cedar DNS3000 Workflow
Lzon
Thread Starter
#1
11th February 2013
Old 11th February 2013
  #1
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
Cedar DNS3000 Workflow

I've searched but can't quite find the answer to this:

I'm currently using WNS and RX2 for a feature. I have found that I have had to do more off-line processing than I would have liked in order to handle buzzes and traffic noise. I have heard so many great reports about Cedar DNS hardware and software I am hoping to investigate for myself soon how much better the results can be using Cedar systems.

My question really is about the workflow. I currently use a WNS on each track in PT. I understand that the DNS one allows multiple instances, but when using the 3000 is it usual to place it on the dialogue bus and automate for the whole film at once? Or maybe apply to a single DX track, for one scene at a time and then print?

If I was going to invest in a Cedar system, which workflow would be the most time effective?

Cheers everyone.
Rich.
#2
11th February 2013
Old 11th February 2013
  #2
Gear maniac
Get the DNS one. You can put one on each track then and automatic clip by clip.
#3
11th February 2013
Old 11th February 2013
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garret View Post
Get the DNS one. You can put one on each track then and automatic clip by clip.
Yep. Dns one is the best!!! I actually use about 30 instances in every session. Try doing that with a 3000. It would cost a fortune!
#4
11th February 2013
Old 11th February 2013
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Mundox's Avatar
 

DNS 3000 will give you 2 channels at once, via AES. You could automate it with the RTAS interface it comes with, just like the DNS One.
#5
11th February 2013
Old 11th February 2013
  #5
Gear addict
 
rcutz's Avatar
I grab a used dns2000 for u$1500
Only two channel over aes, controlled by the dns cs aax. I'm used to do a dialogue chain and record the sound cleaned. When you get used to it, you can go very fast.
Lzon
Thread Starter
#6
12th February 2013
Old 12th February 2013
  #6
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcutz View Post
I grab a used dns2000 for u$1500
Only two channel over aes, controlled by the dns cs aax. I'm used to do a dialogue chain and record the sound cleaned. When you get used to it, you can go very fast.

Would you mind explaining this process a little further? How do you use the 2 channels? Do you put it on the DX bus or individual channels? Do you do a clip/ region at a time, or a whole scene?
#7
12th February 2013
Old 12th February 2013
  #7
Matt R. Sherman
 
Smallbudgetguru's Avatar
 

I use WNS on my dial chain, maybe I should try multiple instances on each dial track?

Seems it would be slower to work it per track but maybe more effective?
#8
12th February 2013
Old 12th February 2013
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallbudgetguru View Post
I use WNS on my dial chain, maybe I should try multiple instances on each dial track?

Seems it would be slower to work it per track but maybe more effective?
I have it on every track, wedged in between an EQ either side. Wouldn't say it's slower at all, just like flicking between EQs
#9
12th February 2013
Old 12th February 2013
  #9
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cananball's Avatar
I use WNS and have been using it on my Dx busses and automating scenes at a time. This becomes a problem after predubs when using VCA faders to adjust Dx levels because it screws up the thresholds on the WNS. Are more people running this type of processor on each individual track?
#10
12th February 2013
Old 12th February 2013
  #10
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cananball View Post
This becomes a problem after predubs when using VCA faders to adjust Dx levels because it screws up the thresholds on the WNS.
Create a master track for each of your Dx busses and move WNS over there. No more screwing up of levels going to the WNS (or DNS, for that matter).

Florian
#11
12th February 2013
Old 12th February 2013
  #11
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cananball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlorianE View Post
Create a master track for each of your Dx busses and move WNS over there. No more screwing up of levels going to the WNS (or DNS, for that matter).

Florian
can you please explain your logic on that?

I've never quite understood the usefulness for master faders in post.

What is the advantage to doing this instead of simply riding the dialogue bus aux instead?

Sent from my SCH-I535
#12
12th February 2013
Old 12th February 2013
  #12
Gear Head
 

On second thought, I'm not sure if a master fader would solve your VCA issue.
But on the use of master faders:
they're simply a direct access to a given path, usually a buss - prior to any Aux feeding off that path.
Example of use:
I tend to send all my stems to a 5.1-'Masterbus'. There is an Aux sending this bus to monitoring. At the same time, I have a 5.1 Audio track receiving 'Masterbus' to record my mix ITB.
I like to use 120Hz Lp on the LFE and 20Hz Hp on the other tracks.
If I put this filter on the Aux, then it will ONLY affect monitoring.
If I put it on the master fader of 'Masterbus', the same filter will affect both monitoring AND recording (which is what I need).
There are other uses also involving dynamics.
Sorry if this is obvious; it wasn't to me, and I got quite mad at myself once I finally figured it out.
Florian
#13
12th February 2013
Old 12th February 2013
  #13
Gear addict
 
rcutz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lzon View Post
Would you mind explaining this process a little further? How do you use the 2 channels? Do you put it on the DX bus or individual channels? Do you do a clip/ region at a time, or a whole scene?
Yeah. All dialogue channel is routed to one mono aux. This one is routed to some "record tracks". In this mono aux - the dxchain - i insert the dns cs. So for each piece of dialogue i set up the denoiser, eq, compression, the desser (when needed), reverd and then I record the result. I actually use just one channel of the dns2000.

Those days a lot of guys whom has the dns one, use one instance of it jn every dialogue channel, making automation of it, some times moving several dialogue channels to the finalmix. I'm used to re-record everything in each predub step, reducing the number of channels at every move, and also I can't afford a dns one at $4500...
#14
13th February 2013
Old 13th February 2013
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
I have two identical mono DX chains, each with a DNS, compressor de-esser and limiter.
These are fed by auxes from each DX track. The output of the two mono chains feed the main DX bus.

That's a simple explanation on how I use a DNS 2000
#15
13th February 2013
Old 13th February 2013
  #15
Gear nut
 
Evil_G's Avatar
 

I have a DNS3000 - inserted on dialog busses...same as Mr. Hensley.
Two mono DX busses, each with compression, limiting, de-essing and the Cedar Insert through AES.
You then place the DNS Control plugin on a separate (say an Aux input) control channel - the target of that control plugin is the DNS3000 hardware - through an IP address. There is no delay/latency this way.
Yes, with the hardware , only two mono instances or one stereo but I see no need of having multiple instances of the plugin - it's easy to just automate the DX busses' insert once you get used to it. You will lose some gain depending on how much noise reduction you're doing, but you can easily fix that with DX channel faders.
Other things going for the hardware : no strain whatsoever on your already taxed host computer...AND...it is platform/software agnostic. Doesn't care about Pro Tools or any DAW, it will apply noise reduction in real time to any signal you feed it. Imagine the uses.
Finally, I have recently exchanged a project where I did a premix, brought it to another studio that had the DNS plugin - he just copied my Control plugin (DNS CS)...and made the target his DNS One instead of my hardware...worked perfectly.
Sorry for the book. My Cedar was the best single investment I've made in my Post Studio. Used on every single show I've mixed since I got it a year ago. $5500 (demo deal) was a hard pill to swallow but worth every penny.
Lzon
Thread Starter
#16
13th February 2013
Old 13th February 2013
  #16
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
Thanks for your descriptions. Very interesting. I must say (perhaps it's my old fashioned side), but I am tempted to go for the hardware even though it has it's limitations in comparison to DNS One.

With a WNS on each track I usually begin by using snapshot automation to apply settings to all regions within a scene on a particular DX track. When using a WNS or DNS on the DX chain how does this affect your automation workflow?
#17
13th February 2013
Old 13th February 2013
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lzon View Post
Thanks for your descriptions. Very interesting. I must say (perhaps it's my old fashioned side), but I am tempted to go for the hardware even though it has it's limitations in comparison to DNS One.

With a WNS on each track I usually begin by using snapshot automation to apply settings to all regions within a scene on a particular DX track. When using a WNS or DNS on the DX chain how does this affect your automation workflow?
I think it's way faster and easier to just put the dns one on every dx track in the session. No automating another track besides the one your working on and no routing to a different bus. Just work on the track the dialog in on and move on the the next track.
#18
14th February 2013
Old 14th February 2013
  #18
Matt R. Sherman
 
Smallbudgetguru's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FullFrequency View Post
I have it on every track, wedged in between an EQ either side. Wouldn't say it's slower at all, just like flicking between EQs
Do you still keep one on the chain to tackle scenes where the noise is constant?

I like to flip faders and ride the threshold and bands through a scene , but I can see the advantage to having both one on each track and one on the chain. Best of both worlds I?
#19
14th February 2013
Old 14th February 2013
  #19
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lzon View Post
Thanks for your descriptions. Very interesting. I must say (perhaps it's my old fashioned side), but I am tempted to go for the hardware even though it has it's limitations in comparison to DNS One.
Sorry to be blunt but except for a great deal on a hardware DNS it is silly (to be polite) to not go for the DNS One. Many more instances can be available and the processing algo is strictly the same.



Sent from my XT910
Lzon
Thread Starter
#20
14th February 2013
Old 14th February 2013
  #20
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven1145 View Post
Sorry to be blunt but except for a great deal on a hardware DNS it is silly (to be polite) to not go for the DNS One. Many more instances can be available and the processing algo is strictly the same.
Haha. Yeah I know, I just like the idea of having the hardware. In reality I know the DNS one is the best option..
#21
14th February 2013
Old 14th February 2013
  #21
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cananball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I have two identical mono DX chains, each with a DNS, compressor de-esser and limiter.
These are fed by auxes from each DX track. The output of the two mono chains feed the main DX bus.

That's a simple explanation on how I use a DNS 2000
May I ask why you feed them from auxes? What output is selected in the I/o of each dx track?

Sent from my SCH-I535
#22
15th February 2013
Old 15th February 2013
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cananball View Post
May I ask why you feed them from auxes? What output is selected in the I/o of each dx track?

Sent from my SCH-I535
I have a bus named "nowhere" that goes nowhere.
That's what each DX tracks output s set to.
The reasn I feed them fom axes, s because I an automate them.
#23
15th February 2013
Old 15th February 2013
  #23
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I have a bus named "nowhere" that goes nowhere.
That's what each DX tracks output s set to.
The reasn I feed them fom axes, s because I an automate them.
A track doesn't even need an output, as long as there is at least one send.
#24
15th February 2013
Old 15th February 2013
  #24
Lives for gear
 
cananball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I have a bus named "nowhere" that goes nowhere.
That's what each DX tracks output s set to.
The reasn I feed them fom axes, s because I an automate them.
That's pretty slick, I might try that. Then if you're on a big scene where you might need a larger spread than the dx tracks in your group you can overlap into your other group and still send to the appropriate bus. Very clever.

Sent from my SCH-I535
#25
15th February 2013
Old 15th February 2013
  #25
Gear nut
 
Evil_G's Avatar
 

I respectfully disagree with the idea that buying the hardware is a silly notion compared to the plugin. I know the algo is the same, and yes it does exactly the same thing and you can have multiple instances of it - but please consider this...

You really don't need more than two mono instances (hardware) of it, residing on the dialog buss(es). Think about it. When are you going to have more than two people talking at the same time that need different noise parameters? 95% of the time, I'm using only one channel on the DX buss. And you don't have to go chasing after plugin windows to control individual tracks. The hardware is always there and the target is always the same. NOTHING is faster.
I have also (as many other have as well I'm sure) done away with having multiple instances of compression, limiting, and de-essing on individual DX tracks too. All that happens on the buss now for me. Just EQ on each track (channel strip or something like it).

As I mentioned before, DNS One runs on Pro Tools. Period. My hardware will run on anything. Live audio. (Yes I've used it in live recording situation on noisy lavs - worked brilliantly). Any DAW platform. You just need an AES or SPDIF send and return.

So, software vs. hardware - it's a complex proposition. I will admit I would have bought the plugin had there not been such a great deal on my unit...and when I bought the hardware, I was very concerned with "not having multiple instances". A year later,and about 60 shows of heavy lifting - it has worked out brilliantly and I am thrilled with the hardware.
#26
15th February 2013
Old 15th February 2013
  #26
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
One thing about not having it on individual tracks is that I like riding into it.
But, lets face it.if one can pick up a DNS 2000 fir $1500, that's a great investment.
The plugin is still three times that.
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1
#27
15th February 2013
Old 15th February 2013
  #27
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cananball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
One thing about not having it on individual tracks is that I like riding into it.
But, lets face it.if one can pick up a DNS 2000 fir $1500, that's a great investment.
The plugin is still three times that.
What do you mean riding into it? Aren't you riding into it if it is on the bus?


Sent from my SCH-I535
#28
15th February 2013
Old 15th February 2013
  #28
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_G View Post

You really don't need more than two mono instances (hardware) of it, residing on the dialog buss(es).
I definitely need more than two instances. I use multiple instances on a single DX track. This is not an uncommon practice. Sense the DNS hardware came out, mixers have done multiple passes. I just do them all at once.

Hench, maybe I use the DNS differently then you do, but I can't understand riding something into it. To me the DNS is only effective if it is working at the level of the noise. So if your riding the level into the DNS, thus changing the noise floor, the DNS would be grabbing DX or letting noise through. I can see in some instances but over all I wouldn't be able to work like that.
#29
15th February 2013
Old 15th February 2013
  #29
Lives for gear
 
huub's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross View Post
I definitely need more than two instances. I use multiple instances on a single DX track. This is not an uncommon practice. Sense the DNS hardware came out, mixers have done multiple passes. I just do them all at once.

Hench, maybe I use the DNS differently then you do, but I can't understand riding something into it. To me the DNS is only effective if it is working at the level of the noise. So if your riding the level into the DNS, thus changing the noise floor, the DNS would be grabbing DX or letting noise through. I can see in some instances but over all I wouldn't be able to work like that.
I use the DNS 1500 for live broadcast, where it lives on a bus with either dialogue, applause or both, so I'm always riding into it. Works more than fine, although I understand that before fader would be ideal because the noisefloor remains constant.
But anyway, after fader also works well.
#30
15th February 2013
Old 15th February 2013
  #30
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_G View Post
You really don't need more than two mono instances (hardware) of it, residing on the dialog buss(es). Think about it. When are you going to have more than two people talking at the same time...
Well it all depends on the projects we are working on. I frequently use at least 4 busses with DNS instances as the destination. Sometimes for simple checker boarding of dialog scenes, sometimes because in a scene there will be some shots much noisier than others and with yet another noise characteristic for lavs, and with one instance always reserved for production fx (same noise, just not the same destination stem).
So it's not just a case of only two people talking, because the above scenarios cover that most of the time.
So if the price is right on the hardware, go for it, otherwise it's worth considering the plugin. I have both a DNS 2000 and the DNS One.



Sent from my XT910
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