Login / Register
 
Snap Shot automation vs. real time automation
New Reply
Subscribe
will_gates00000
Thread Starter
#1
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #1
Gear maniac
 
will_gates00000's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Florida, United States
Posts: 160

Thread Starter
will_gates00000 is offline
Snap Shot automation vs. real time automation

Hey yall. I'm going to be the sound supervisor for the five studentfilms that we are doing this semester and the lead sound designer for two of them. What I am wondering is how do you guys right your automation? Do you write it real time with write or latch? Or do you use the snap shot/ glide automation workflows? We have a 32 channel Icon D-Control and a pro tools 10 HD 3 TDM system with waves mercuary, izotope, altiverb, and a stock TC 6000. With these tools how would you apply your automation? AND COULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW HOOK UP THE AUTOMATION FOR THE TC 6000, ITS BEEN DRIVING ME NUTS !!! Thanks.
#2
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 519

brandoncross is offline
I always run in touch/latch. So, plug ins are in latch and fader is in touch. I loop a channel of dx or fx or whatever I want to automate, put pro tools into preview, adjust the plug ins how I like them, go to the beginning of the point where I want to automate, hit punch preview and ride the volume / listen to the stuff I'm automating.
#3
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #3
Gear addict
 
NReichman's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 343

NReichman is offline
Quote:
We have a 32 channel Icon D-Control and a pro tools 10 HD 3 TDM system with waves mercuary, izotope, altiverb, and a stock TC 6000
OMG you're well-equipped. I don't know if you're a student, but you should know that you're driving a Rolls-Royce there, and your first gig out of school will probably be on a Kia.

I automated a TC6000 ten years ago using MIDI. Hopefully the software has been revised since to provide an easier way. Honestly, if you have to move quickly between multiple projects, I would just drop the 6000 altogether and stay in-the-box. Yes, the 6000 sounds stellar, but it will be high-maintenance.
__________________
Nathaniel Reichman
Supervising Producer – Re-recording Mixer
Rhumba Recorders/Murmur Music
#4
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #4
Lives for gear
 
JSt0rm's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,788

JSt0rm is online now
forget about the tc6000. Chances you will see that again are around 5%
will_gates00000
Thread Starter
#5
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #5
Gear maniac
 
will_gates00000's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Florida, United States
Posts: 160

Thread Starter
will_gates00000 is offline
Yeah I'm still a student. But my school just built this killer studio and one of the rooms was built primarily for film mixing. I know that this is a monster set up that I may not see in my first job but I want to be able to use it to the max so that when tho opportunity to get back to a system like this comes up I'm ready to use it. Keep the suggestions coming maybe geo and henchman can join in.
#6
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,498

apple-q is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by will_gates00000 View Post
Hey yall. I'm going to be the sound supervisor for the five studentfilms that we are doing this semester and the lead sound designer for two of them. What I am wondering is how do you guys right your automation? Do you write it real time with write or latch? Or do you use the snap shot/ glide automation workflows? We have a 32 channel Icon D-Control and a pro tools 10 HD 3 TDM system with waves mercuary, izotope, altiverb, and a stock TC 6000. With these tools how would you apply your automation? AND COULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW HOOK UP THE AUTOMATION FOR THE TC 6000, ITS BEEN DRIVING ME NUTS !!! Thanks.
AFAIK, you simply feed the TC6000 with LTC and that's it.
#7
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #7
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Ireland

Garret is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
AFAIK, you simply feed the TC6000 with LTC and that's it.
Exactly. It's extremely easy and quick. No more complicated than using a plugin. There is an automation page where you load in the setting at the timecode you want it to switch and then you can save the project automation onto a floppy disk for future needs.
__________________
2 x PT HD3 & 1 x PT HD4 with Satellite link. 32 Fader D-Control.
MC 5.5 with Christie Projector
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1629377/
#8
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #8
Moderator
 
georgia's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: NY NY
Posts: 1,620
My Recordings/Credits

georgia is offline
TC 6000 - easy to use. and one of my main stays. I've used up to 3 loaded units in a big film mix. Had 2 in my dub stage and still keep one in my Sound Design room. Love it. I do scene automation with it for all the special effects and fun stuff. I use the software versions of the 6000's reverb for all the room verbs as well. Generally I do a fast run through before starting to "mix" to get a solid feel of the entire film and to do a quick touch/latch run on everything to start throwing things into the ball park. After I get things close, I'll start to do polish runs and tweaking.

If I have a limited amount of time for a mix, and I know it's going to be what it is...(once had to mix a 90 minute feature in Literally 24 hours for Tribeca film festival) I start with the last 20 minutes, then do the first 20 minutes then back and forth to the middle, so that the audience would get my best work out of the box and at then end, figuring they'll forgive stuff in the middle if they are properly "hooked" and left with a solid ending. It's tough when you have to literally fly thru a mix with limited time as a single mixer... you get tired and your hearing just burns out. One other thing I do on all my mixes is jump around now an then to make sure i'm not slowly getting louder or softer from the beginning of the day to the end of the day.


If I have a respectable amount of time to mix, I follow a more traditional process path. A quick hint is to make sure the dialogue is well mixed and at nice and proper levels for the film and for each scene, then mix everything else around it. It's a good place to start if you don't have a lot of experience in mixing a film. There are lots of great posts on levels and how to mix in this forum.

No matter how much time you have for a mix, you'll never have enough, so budget your time, put a schedule together and stick to it. Plan time to get the session running, time to get a rough mix knocked out, and budget time so that you don't get 3/4 of the way thru the mix and run out. You don't want to have 3/4 of a great mix done and then be stuck speeding thru the last 20 minutes of the film without enough time to do it right.


Make sure you have the session(s) prepared before going into the mix... everything properly named, things in the right stem, etc... it sucks burning a lot of time in the middle of a mix trying to find out where the sound designer put the door knob twist, or where the dialogue editor buried the raw production tracks... One thing I still do is to have a complete CUE SHEET on my laptop for an assistant to track my mix as I go thru it so I can ask which track and what time-code a specific sound is on. Wonderful time saver on a 100+ track mix. I use Agent Orange to create nice simple PDF cue sheets from protools sessions.

One of the many critical items in mixing for theatrical is the room itself. Did your school properly align the room for a film mix, or are you mixing in an editing or audio suite?

You have some fun toys... enjoy...

cheers
geo
#9
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #9
Moderator
 
georgia's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: NY NY
Posts: 1,620
My Recordings/Credits

georgia is offline
as to the TC6000.... just take SMPTE time code out of your SYNC IO and feed it to the SMPTE in in the back of the TC6000. THen you can do scene automation. One of the nice things about the 6000 is that you can automate the IO paths and the engines, so you can re-configure the 6000 on the fly in automation.

I'd be happy to walk you thur it if you need help.. just pop me an email or give me a call off line.

cheers
geo
#10
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #10
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,736

narcoman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgia View Post
TC 6000 - easy to use. and one of my main stays. I've used up to 3 loaded units in a big film mix. Had 2 in my dub stage and still keep one i... etc etc
cheers
geo
Georgia, you really are a huge bonus to have here at GS.
#11
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: LA, USA
Posts: 8,698
My Recordings/Credits

Henchman is offline
The way I automate, is put the automation in preview, mess around, select a reign I want to have those settings , then hit "write to all".
If I want the same settings from that track copied across various tracks, I use " copy all automation" and the past it using the shift-option-v.

It's a fast way of doing it.
I use the soft buttons and have my preview, wrote to all , wrote to end and wrote to beginning programmed in there.


As an aside. I'm a little astonished, that the school installed this equipment, yet obviously there's nobody teaching anyone how to use it properly.

I hope they got the single most important pug-in for mixing post,which is the Cedar DNS.
If they didnt, they shouldn't have wasted the money on the 6000.
#12
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #12
mymixisbetterthanyours!
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Salzburg / Berlin
Posts: 2,511

kosmokrator is offline
Regarding automation in Protools, use snapshot automation.

As for the T.C. 6000, besides the SMTPE automation, you can also automate all parameters that are mapped to a fader (if they are not, you can map any parameter to a fader using custom fader groups on the T.C. Icon) via MIDI CC.

It's laid out in detail in the manual that you can download from the T.C. site.
__________________
www.just-mix-it.com
#13
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #13
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,736

narcoman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post


As an aside. I'm a little astonished, that the school installed this equipment, yet obviously there's nobody teaching anyone how to use it properly.
.
Schools, all of them, are now businesses. You get investment, make your school look attractive to garner further interest and be seen to be chasing opportunity. That, weirdly, also seems to include buying world class studio equipment for no reason !!
#14
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #14
Gear addict
 
Larry Elliott's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Auckland , New Zealand
Posts: 494

Send a message via AIM to Larry Elliott Send a message via Skype™ to Larry Elliott
Larry Elliott is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Schools, all of them, are now businesses. You get investment, make your school look attractive to garner further interest and be seen to be chasing opportunity. That, weirdly, also seems to include buying world class studio equipment for no reason !!
How true. And with all that first class equipment you won't need an experienced tutor. ????
__________________
www.vivante.net.nz
#15
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #15
Lives for gear
 
ggegan's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: The Heart of Screenland
Posts: 2,170

ggegan is offline
I wouldn't think in terms of "versus". The two forms of automation compliment each other. I don't always do things the same way, but often what I do is this: I concentrate on working on groups of clips that work together. If I'm working in the box, first I'll show only the selected tracks I'm working on, which focuses them next to each other on an ICON console. On conventional consoles I skip that step because you can't really do that easily. I'll generally enter preview mode, loop the section and solo each element individually, set a ballpark level, apply any processing or reverb needed, then solo all of them together, readjust, then remove the solos and readjust for in context. Then I either Write to All Enabled or punch preview, or the equivalent on conventional consoles, to write that initial automation. After that I go back and ride the faders to make real time adjustments and feather things. Sometimes I'll go back and touch up the fader moves with a mouse if I need to adjust the timing of a move or finesse a detail, but that is mostly when I'm working in the box. I don't always go in the same order, it depends on the situation. If I'm working on a recurring sound, I'll often copy/paste automation from a previous instance and then use trim mode or the mouse to customize it a bit.

That may seem like a lot of steps, but they all kind of blend into a flurry of actions that rely on muscle memory and quick decision making and can be accomplished very quickly by an experienced mixer. Also, it allows you to optimize the sounds very specifically.

I pretty much never grab a bunch of faders and try to manipulate them all at the same time. Very early in my career I was working with an A-list dialog mixer who told me if he ever saw me do that, he'd never work with me again. I've heeded that advice to this day.
__________________
Gary Gegan
#16
26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Airon's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 568

Airon is offline
Plenty of great advice.

Practice a LOT before it really matters. It's the one thing so many of us regret not having done when they had all the opportunity in the world to geek out on kit and mixing strategy, and it is what beginning folks underestimate. If you can watch masters work, do it. Take your students to them. Forums are slow, that's fast.

It's muscle memory and plenty of aquired strategies.

And damn, wouldn't I mind using a sweet TC unit one day. Only been an in-the-box guy so far.

The strategies I use depend on the time budget I'm given and the problems I face. Dialog is often the most important thing in a films soundtrack, so the problems and situations there are the first I address.

It helps to have a mix book, or document, prepared by the editor or the mixer themselves. Preperation really pays off, so you should have the editors and mixers talking to each other.

Then it becomes easier doing a nice snapshot setup pass of all the scenes, and after that refining details.

The goal of all the communication is to cut down on the stuff-finding, so you can get the most creative decisions made in the time you have.

So get your Icon setup to have the Preview stuff at hand, and learn the automation commands. Watch the movies at Avid.com about the Icons if possible. There's always a tip you didn't think of.

For example, you can copy settings between plugins on a track with buttons in the channel strip knob area really quickly, which is great for copying settings between dialog EQs for example. All that stuff can be practiced until you waste as little time as possible on management tasks, which are necessary to execute your creative decisions.

Oh and use all the help you can get. USE IT.

And have fun

Tony
will_gates00000
Thread Starter
#17
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #17
Gear maniac
 
will_gates00000's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Florida, United States
Posts: 160

Thread Starter
will_gates00000 is offline
Thanks for all the great info guys. The studio is a hybrid with two controls rooms rolled into one. The reason for the tc 6000 was because one was installed in the one with the ssl and they figured to get a second one for the room with the icon. And no we don't have cedar. If I had my way I would have a DNR or at least a DNS plug... oh well. The studio engineer is awesome and taught me how to use all of the equipment but not "HOW" to use the equipment. What I'm still learning is how to use what he taught me to the best of my ability. His background was mixing music when he lived in Brazil and Germany and while he has done some films, it's not his forte.
Quote:
Watch the movies at Avid.com about the Icons if possible. There's always a tip you didn't think of.
First Thing I did when I found out about this board. I'm defiantly going to start setting up the soft knobs for what I need.
Quote:
You have some fun toys... enjoy...
Right know I'm the happiest man Alive. Not only do I get to use the equipment but since I started volunteering at the studio the same week the construction ended I actually installed about 80% of the software on the computers and set up all the I/0. So I know the studio inside and out. Plus the TC 6000... I'm ruined forever...

I think what I am going to do is use the preview-> print automation clip by clip for the first pass and then use touch for the finer passes. All of this after some major dialogue editing and premixing of course.

Also one last thing. Have any of you used an Avid Satellite system to link two pro tools rigs together before? We have a license for a media composer computer that I can steal for one of the pro tools computers. Like put Music and Dialogue and one computer and use the other for SFX, Foley and Ambiance? Is it more trouble than it's worth for the extra DSP or could It really help me with my mix. The way I would use it I would send the digital outputs of the Foley, SFX, and Ambiance stems computer into the digital inputs of the Dialogue computer adn send that audio into auxs and stem masters. Any experience with that tool will also be helpful.
will_gates00000
Thread Starter
#18
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #18
Gear maniac
 
will_gates00000's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Florida, United States
Posts: 160

Thread Starter
will_gates00000 is offline
Quote:
One of the many critical items in mixing for theatrical is the room itself. Did your school properly align the room for a film mix, or are you mixing in an editing or audio suite?
You would call it and audio suite. It has a 5.1 Genelec 8260A system with yamaha HS80M's for reference. I'm going to try and calibrate the system to 82db.

We can also route the audio to the screening theater across the hall and listen in there and then use a laptop to remote access the pro tools computer to mix in the theater. A little twitchy but it works.
#19
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: LA, USA
Posts: 8,698
My Recordings/Credits

Henchman is offline
They were stupid to not get a cedar.
#20
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #20
Lives for gear
 
ggegan's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: The Heart of Screenland
Posts: 2,170

ggegan is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
They were stupid to not get a cedar.
There's a reason the plugin version costs $4000, you've GOT to have it unless you only work on animation projects. With all the location shooting that happens these days in this noisy world, you are at a competitive disadvantage if you don't have it.
#21
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: LA, USA
Posts: 8,698
My Recordings/Credits

Henchman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
There's a reason the plugin version costs $4000, you've GOT to have it unless you only work on animation projects. With all the location shooting that happens these days in this noisy world, you are at a competitive disadvantage if you don't have it.
Exactly.
I won't mix without Cedar. I can very easily mix without an expensive outboard reverb. Wether it's a lexicon or TC.
will_gates00000
Thread Starter
#22
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #22
Gear maniac
 
will_gates00000's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Florida, United States
Posts: 160

Thread Starter
will_gates00000 is offline
As much as I would love to have Cedar in the end I don't have it and I'll still need to get the job done. I've been able to get good results with izotope and WNS that is what I'll use. I know how much you hate it henchman but it's the best NR in my tool box at the moment.
#23
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: LA, USA
Posts: 8,698
My Recordings/Credits

Henchman is offline
I'm just saying it shows the complete inexperience of whomever was in charge of putting the studio together. The cost of all that gear, and yet they missed one go the most important tools.

And the cost of it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of an Icon.
The rally didn't need a 32 Channel Icon either. 16 faders is more than enough, because of the custom faders.

This kind of thing just picks my ass.
#24
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #24
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,736

narcoman is offline
Of course it was done without experience!! There are hundreds of schools in the UK alive with studios that have over specified equipment.

The motivation is bums on seats and investors. Got absolutely nothing to do with proper training in audio. It's all about the student experience whilst equating a high class feel for parents. Schools are just as bad as SAE etc in this.
will_gates00000
Thread Starter
#25
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #25
Gear maniac
 
will_gates00000's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Florida, United States
Posts: 160

Thread Starter
will_gates00000 is offline
Like I said the school engineer that helped build the studio is mostly experienced with high end music not high end post production. And while the suite will mostly be used for post it will still be used for music classes as well so I can kind of understand where they are coming from. Anyway if I cant get the student films to sound decent with this kind of gear at my disposal.. thats going to be sad. thanks for all the advice guys, you've been more help than you know.
#26
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #26
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,736

narcoman is offline
More the reason that they should have asked someone who knew!! However that's not your fault or problem- keeps us up to date with your prOgress; I'm sure people will help.
#27
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #27
Moderator
 
georgia's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: NY NY
Posts: 1,620
My Recordings/Credits

georgia is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
I pretty much never grab a bunch of faders and try to manipulate them all at the same time.

+1

cheers
geo


PS: +1 for the CEDER as well.. My fav dialogue cleanup tools are my CEDER 2000, the system6000 backdrop, and then waves...(in that order)
#28
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,498

apple-q is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Schools, all of them, are now businesses
Just for the record: I think this might only apply to the US and some other countries.
In most Euro-countries schools (universities, college and major film-schools) are run by the state and charge nothing or very little and are not businesses. Even the ones with the most expensive equipment.

But this doesn't mean money isn't wasted in those schools as well ;-)
#29
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
  #29
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,736

narcoman is offline
In the UK all universities are businesses and have to turn a profit. Most schools operate as businesses and seek private investment on top if their state sponsorship under their mandate for specialisation. Unsure about the rest of Europe.

There are a growing number of private schools which, naturally, charge fees.
#30
28th January 2013
Old 28th January 2013
  #30
Gear maniac
 
Jussi's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: London

Jussi is offline
Afaik some of the UK schools run as charities.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Topic:
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Deleted User / Music Computers
2
Rowdy / Music Computers
7
stereobot / Music Computers
1
Sender / Music Computers
2

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.