Tools and tips for editing surround sounds
gael nicolas
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#1
24th January 2013
Old 24th January 2013
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Tools and tips for editing surround sounds

Hi everyone,

This thread is for those who are interested in 5.1 editing and in the new Dolby Atmos or the Barco Auro-3D. For those who wonder how to deal with the new speakers and don't want to spend hours to feed each speakers with different stereo files.

For many years now, i use multichannel recordings sounds when editing on feature films. There are many ways to record those kind of material Surround Library, Your Surround Sound Effects Source (Ambisonic, Double-M/S, 7.1, 5.1, Quad) - White Papers.

Each technics represent advantages and drawbacks (in my point of view of course ).

Those who don't need Plug-ins and are ready to use : IRT for exemple, two pair of mics ready to feed front and back speakers ! very easy but there is no way to spin or resize the sound.

Those who need plug-ins: Ambisonic and 2 Mid Side technics offer an interesting choice for post production editing. Some plug-ins exist for years now : Surround-Zone, Harpex for ambisonic B-format and Schoeps Double MS for 2MS.
Surround Library, Your Surround Sound Effects Source (Ambisonic, Double-M/S, 7.1, 5.1, Quad) - Howto
Here we can work on how the original sound will be reproduce in the speakers area. You want to rotate it because what you want to ear was originally on the left side and you want it in the front, that's possible. You want something more tight or larger, that's also possible. You can really fit the picture.
You can also do automation to suite the movement of the camera, here you are going to reproduce a movement that was not in the original take. IT WILL NOT BE a classic pan pot, but you are going to spin the Microphone in Post!
An exemple in Harpex



Those sounds are ready for new standard, Ambisonic is 3D you can easily decode them by including the height. Everything (until you have the good sound!) is possible.
It's a lot of time saving and, by the way, it is largely more exiting to create space with those sounds than using stereo files.

Here you can find a lot of sounds and free exemples, even ready to use Pro tools session, Reaper and Pyramix.

Surround Library, Your Surround Sound Effects Source (Ambisonic, Double-M/S, 7.1, 5.1, Quad) - Home page

Have fun and be curious!
#2
24th January 2013
Old 24th January 2013
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Hm. Not sure but I think you are missing the point about Dolby Atmos. It's about panning discrete additional tracks by writing meta-data instead of rendering the panning during the mix.

It's not so much about phantom sources it's about panning discrete elements across physical speakers.

Not sure how that relates to Ambisonics.
gael nicolas
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24th January 2013
Old 24th January 2013
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For now you are right, the compatibility between Atmos and 5.1 is the main problem for dolby. So, for now, you have to do your 5.1 mix (wich is a good way to introduce multichannel recording sounds in your workflow ) and after another one to make it in atmos.

I remember the days when we had to mix in Dolby SR and SRD in a second time.

So it's just a question of time to mix direct in Atmos or auro 3D and at that time, everybody will want to have immersives ambiances...

I hope it will move quickly, Height is really interesting for immersive sensation.
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24th January 2013
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maggot's spanner does some very interesting and useful things.

maggot software
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24th January 2013
Old 24th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gael nicolas View Post
For now you are right, the compatibility between Atmos and 5.1 is the main problem for dolby. So, for now, you have to do your 5.1 mix (wich is a good way to introduce multichannel recording sounds in your workflow ) and after another one to make it in atmos.
Not really. The first films were mixed that way (actually 7.1 first then a pass for the object tracks) because most of them started as a 7.1 mix and then Atmos came out and they did another pass to add the objects.
Also: You donÄt mix the film again. You simply put the desired elements you want to pan onto object tracks and use the Atmos panner on those. So it's a 7.1 mix plus the desired elements moved to object tracks (up to 128).
It's far from re-mixing the whole film. And it's also not done for compatibility. The cool think about Atmos is that your down-mixes are done my the renderer.
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24th January 2013
Old 24th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gael nicolas View Post
For now you are right, the compatibility between Atmos and 5.1 is the main problem for dolby.
How is that? The render will generate your 5.1 or 7.1 mix automatically.
WHat is the compatibility issue?
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24th January 2013
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Thanks for the info Gael. I think this makes sense for the Auro-3D, as you can extract all the channels from one Ambisonic recording, instead of cutting them all by hand. This was actually my biggest question about Auro-3D - who is crazy enough to cut backgrounds to fill all those channels?!
gael nicolas
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26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
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Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Not really. The first films were mixed that way (actually 7.1 first then a pass for the object tracks) because most of them started as a 7.1 mix and then Atmos came out and they did another pass to add the objects.
Also: You donÄt mix the film again. You simply put the desired elements you want to pan onto object tracks and use the Atmos panner on those. So it's a 7.1 mix plus the desired elements moved to object tracks (up to 128).
It's far from re-mixing the whole film. And it's also not done for compatibility. The cool think about Atmos is that your down-mixes are done my the renderer.
Nobody talk of remixing everything! Anyway it's an additionnal procedure (for now). During this operation you can add additionnal FX (the terrible troll's sound) and some additionnal ambiances, and those last ones can be the decoded height of the ambisonic ambiance you've already mix.
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26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gael nicolas View Post
Nobody talk of remixing everything! Anyway it's an additionnal procedure (for now). During this operation you can add additionnal FX (the terrible troll's sound) and some additionnal ambiances, and those last ones can be the decoded height of the ambisonic ambiance you've already mix.

Ture but all you get from that is a "hight" signal that is more or less the same as all the other channel since sound-field based recordings have very little channel-separation. When you mix for Atmos you usually want very specific single elements for the object tracks not just "more or less the same" as in all the other "bottom" channels.
Maybe I'm aloine with this but every single DMS or sound field based surround ambience to me sounds like there's "something" in all the channels but they rarely work as cinematic wide B/Gs that sound immersive in the theatre. It's not a about disregarding these ambiences generally I just think they don't work very well for cinema because they are all coincidence setups with no delta t in the signals.

But hey, just one opinion from trying DMS and sound field formats. YMMV.
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26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
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For me the DMS sounds great. Very very realistic spatial sound. Now when we have the spanner plugin we can do so much more with it!

I personally decode the 3 channel DMS signal using a matrix of panned aux tracks in protools (with phase shift on some of them). I decode the DMS to 5 channels, including the C channel.

Did i mention it sounds great in cinema?
gael nicolas
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26th January 2013
Old 26th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apple-q View Post
Ture but all you get from that is a "hight" signal that is more or less the same as all the other channel since sound-field based recordings have very little channel-separation. When you mix for Atmos you usually want very specific single elements for the object tracks not just "more or less the same" as in all the other "bottom" channels.
Maybe I'm aloine with this but every single DMS or sound field based surround ambience to me sounds like there's "something" in all the channels but they rarely work as cinematic wide B/Gs that sound immersive in the theatre. It's not a about disregarding these ambiences generally I just think they don't work very well for cinema because they are all coincidence setups with no delta t in the signals.

But hey, just one opinion from trying DMS and sound field formats. YMMV.
I had recently an audio experience with ambisonic decoded on 8 speakers: 4 at the bottom and 4 at the top, like a cube, and i have to say that the space is realistic and very immersive.
I understand you point of view and i think you are right, but when you mean "more or less the same" i had to say that is very cool. It 's complementary of what already exist. But gives the sensation of an elevation.
I will not search for something different, but something more immersive.
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27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cebolao View Post
For me the DMS sounds great. Very very realistic spatial sound. Now when we have the spanner plugin we can do so much more with it!

I personally decode the 3 channel DMS signal using a matrix of panned aux tracks in protools (with phase shift on some of them). I decode the DMS to 5 channels, including the C channel.

Did i mention it sounds great in cinema?
Sebastian, could you possibly share an ambience of choice, both raw and decoded to 5 channels?

Do you do your own DMS recording?
#13
27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
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Sure, i'll take some stuff from studio and send it to you. Yes, we record our own ambiences in DMS.

Cheers!
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27th January 2013
Old 27th January 2013
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Great, thanks! Whenever you find the time, I'm just curious, that's all.....
#15
11th February 2013
Old 11th February 2013
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ok, i've the dms session for you.

PM your email address.
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