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Sergiusz
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1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
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post workflow

Hello everyone.
I have been working on a couple indie short movies but right now I need to edit and mix documentary which is 45 minutes long.
I have created markers to clean it up a bit and then I created new tracks for new scene(ambienc+dialoge etc.). Because of that it's getting more and more cluttered.
Is there a way to get around it? Any suggestions? Should I try auxes for let's say ambience, send it to one aux and then automate? What is your workflow with these kinds of projects?

thanks
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1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
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I wouldn't create new tracks for each scene, you'd end up with hundreds of tracks. I would use AUX sends for dialogue, FX, etc. While editing, I keep the imported OMF tracks at the bottom (with another copy hidden and inactive in case I mess something up) and only pull what I'm working on into the dialogue tracks. Do several passes, see what you are working with, select tracks, edit, finalize.
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Sergiusz
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1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
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thanks for the response. I got the omf which is pretty much all over the place (12 tracks with mixture of different regions). I stil have to organise it somehow. Should I automate sends on these tracks? If I do this, how can I control plugins parameters? It's quite obvious that different locations sounds needs specified treatment and automating all plugins parameters sounds lika a nightmare. Should I rather go for bounce in place mode?
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1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
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Hi there,
You'll need to create your mixer first. Here's a BASIC layout:

Make, say, 8 tracks for dialog/interviews/VO, 8 tracks for music, and as many tracks as you need for FX and BG ambiences.

Add any reverb/FX sends you need to the individual tracks (will vary depending on the "food group") as well as inserts; usually Eq and compression for your FX tracks, and eq, compression, de-essing, maybe noise reduction on your DX tracks.

Also create tracks to record TO: DX stem, MX stem, FX stem, M&E, and 5.1 and/or Stereo/LtRt printmaster.

Once all this is done, import your OMF and start dragging the regions from the OMF tracks into your mixer, then when it's all sorted out you can start editing and mixing.

Once the mix is done, route each track to the appropriate stem record track, route the stems to the printmaster, hit record and print your mix.

If you are using Pro Tools, printing the mix this way (instead of bouncing) will allow you to punch in to make fixes instead of bouncing the whole thing again.

Hope this helps, good luck!

Best,

Joe
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1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergiusz View Post
thanks for the response. I got the omf which is pretty much all over the place (12 tracks with mixture of different regions). I stil have to organise it somehow. Should I automate sends on these tracks? If I do this, how can I control plugins parameters? It's quite obvious that different locations sounds needs specified treatment and automating all plugins parameters sounds lika a nightmare. Should I rather go for bounce in place mode?
I think Joe pretty much told you everything you need to know. But to answer your question yes you will need to automate plugin parameters. Maybe not all of them, just enable the ones you use. Snapshot automation is your friend.
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1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
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Gotta say I'm with Joe. If you lock those OMF / AAF tracks first thing, and then copy or drag copies to active tracks that you've set up for dialog a/b/c/d/etc, pfx, fx, etc... then
1) you'll always the pristine editor's tracks for reference if you (or they) screw up
2) be able to hide those mixed-up jumbled editor's tracks when it's time to mix, and not worry about what's on each.

Remember, this ain't 24-track and a console any more. Computer tracks and mixer channels / groups / subs are free. You can have as many as you want or can get your head around.
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1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
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Cheers for that, have already started this sort of setup on a mixer so I'm glad that it's common way. Well I guess it's time to go back to work, thanks again for your help.
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1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
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definitely clean up the OMF to a minimum number of tracks, separating dialogue, SFX, Room tone, AMB, music... let's call these OMF tracks.

then create additional sets of tracks for
1. Dialogue
2. SFX
3. Music

within each of these track sets, you can set up MONO, Stereo and other track types as required. Then create Effect auxs and sends such that each group ( STEM) has its own set of effects ( reverb, delay, etc ) and do not get used for the other stems. Create a group master for each stem as well.

You can then add eqs, and other basic plugins on each track, and automate as required.

Once you have created the OMF tracks and the other stem tracks. copy the OMF audio segments down to the appropriate track and stem. Then turn the OMF tracks off. These are now your backups.

Don't try to create new tracks for each scene. It'll just make things more complicated.


Create a record master for each stem as well as a MAster record track.

When you finish mixing, you can print all the Stems and from the stem masters you route to the master record track. Make sure any processing occurs before printing the stems, NOT on the master or post stem.

cheers
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#9
4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
Snapshot automation is your friend.

This.
#10
4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgia View Post
Make sure any processing occurs before printing the stems, NOT on the master or post stem.
This is a HUGE step. For some reason some engineers that I have worked with, or have received "final" stems from, don't understand this. They keep putting the plugs on the actual stem tracks. "But it sounded right on my system..."

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5th December 2012
Old 5th December 2012
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I agree with Joe.

I actually like to checkerboard my scenes so i can visually check where I'm at. it also helps to globally attack one scene at a time, especially during review and if you need to export a section for review in a QT movie. -- all this could be done with straight long play tracks, but I like the visual offsets of checkerboarding.


oh, and this pain in setting up is VERY normal, indeed it's the same (almost) on every project.

It takes me a long time to set up my OMF, you learn shortcuts and after a while you begin to see patterns in export from the NLE so you'll get faster but it's always a little challenging. However, spending the time here makes for a good edit.

also, like Joe mentioned, import OMF and then COPY up tracks to your template and then make the OMF tracks inactive. it'll help when needing to revisit the OMF -- this does happen.

and while on the discussion of setup. make a template. use your first mix as a test ground to see what you need, then abstract that to a template which you save and use often for new projects.

separate the dialogue, music, effects, backgrounds into groups of tracks, feeding their individual aux faders for control, those auxes then feed the master fader. each aux should also have a dedicated audio track to write to (print) so you can record the groups of tracks back into the session as stems as well as one final composite (master).

most of your time will be dialogue editing. this takes the largest part of a 1 man edit/mix. once you get your dialogue leveled and clean, playing smoothly for the entire film, then begin adding in effects backgrounds and music. all these are hard to judge in volume without a base line volume of an edited dialogue track -- which of course needs to be edited in a studio thats calibrated.
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5th December 2012
Old 5th December 2012
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All good info.
I for one don't copy the regions in the OMF, I move them, so I can see what I already moved.

When finished, I import the OMF again and disable it, so it's there as well for referencing / ass-covering.

Ah, and don't forget to erase the pan automation from OMF regions you moved to a stereo track. ]
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5th December 2012
Old 5th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosmokrator View Post
All good info.
Ah, and don't forget to erase the pan automation from OMF regions you moved to a stereo track. ]
Wouldn't switching off 'Automation follows edit' mean that the pan information is left behind in those OMF tracks when you drag them into your main edit & mix channels?

All great stuff here.
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27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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I am doing the sound for few short films (around 9minutes), I have a question regarding the workflow (more related to how to manage tracks).
I end up easily with a lot of tracks because I tend to create a lot of them for dialogues:
on a 2 minutes dialog I may end up having a different track for each different framing because different boom positions in my opinion require different eqs and compression, or on a specific framing I prefer the sound of a radio mic compared to the one from the boom.
so I end up having:
- Boom Track 1 - Character A
- Boom Track 2 - Character B + C
- Radio Track 1 - Character A
- Radio Track 2 - Character B
- Radio Track 3 - Character C
And this is only working on a 2 minutes part, when I multiply this for the eight minutes I could easily end up with more then 20 Dialog Tracks. I like the result of the sound of this workflow, but when I start adding effect + ambience + music. My track count goes really big. Is my workflow 'wrong' ? Would you bounce the dialogs after they sound good?

Thanks.
#15
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebbo View Post
I am doing the sound for few short films (around 9minutes), I have a question regarding the workflow (more related to how to manage tracks).
I end up easily with a lot of tracks because I tend to create a lot of them for dialogues:
on a 2 minutes dialog I may end up having a different track for each different framing because different boom positions in my opinion require different eqs and compression, or on a specific framing I prefer the sound of a radio mic compared to the one from the boom.
so I end up having:
- Boom Track 1 - Character A
- Boom Track 2 - Character B + C
- Radio Track 1 - Character A
- Radio Track 2 - Character B
- Radio Track 3 - Character C
And this is only working on a 2 minutes part, when I multiply this for the eight minutes I could easily end up with more then 20 Dialog Tracks. I like the result of the sound of this workflow, but when I start adding effect + ambience + music. My track count goes really big. Is my workflow 'wrong' ? Would you bounce the dialogs after they sound good?

Thanks.
You need to automate your eq, dynamics and any other effects settings
#16
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebbo View Post
I am doing the sound for few short films (around 9minutes), I have a question regarding the workflow (more related to how to manage tracks).
I end up easily with a lot of tracks because I tend to create a lot of them for dialogues:
on a 2 minutes dialog I may end up having a different track for each different framing because different boom positions in my opinion require different eqs and compression, or on a specific framing I prefer the sound of a radio mic compared to the one from the boom.
so I end up having:
- Boom Track 1 - Character A
- Boom Track 2 - Character B + C
- Radio Track 1 - Character A
- Radio Track 2 - Character B
- Radio Track 3 - Character C
And this is only working on a 2 minutes part, when I multiply this for the eight minutes I could easily end up with more then 20 Dialog Tracks. I like the result of the sound of this workflow, but when I start adding effect + ambience + music. My track count goes really big. Is my workflow 'wrong' ? Would you bounce the dialogs after they sound good?

Thanks.
Automate and bounce.

I'd do the same for effects btw, if there are a lot of them. Get all this stuff as good as you can while leaving some flexibility, then bounce and bring into a master session.
#17
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Ok, so lets say I like a certain eq setting for a part of the dialogue and on the one after I like another, everything is on the same track.
(in Pro Tools) Can I edit the eq for the first part in the plugin window, record the settings as automation, then go to the second part, edit the plugin in the plugin window and record the settings as automation?
#18
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebbo View Post
Ok, so lets say I like a certain eq setting for a part of the dialogue and on the one after I like another, everything is on the same track.
(in Pro Tools) Can I edit the eq for the first part in the plugin window, record the settings as automation, then go to the second part, edit the plugin in the plugin window and record the settings as automation?
That's how it's usually done. In Pro Tools you can set your EQs/dynamics for a scene in automation Preview, and then once you've got it the way you like it, write the automation. Also read about "write to current"/"write to all"/"glide to current"/"glide to all" in the manual for editing automation changes. You use write to current to write automation to an entire clip, and you use glide to edit out automation snaps.
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27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebbo View Post
Ok, so lets say I like a certain eq setting for a part of the dialogue and on the one after I like another, everything is on the same track.
(in Pro Tools) Can I edit the eq for the first part in the plugin window, record the settings as automation, then go to the second part, edit the plugin in the plugin window and record the settings as automation?
Yes, you can automate every setting of the plugins. Use preview mode, play with your settings and then either write it to the end of clip or highlight exactly what you want to write it to it. There's lots of ways to do it, but in the end they achieve the same thing, so it's what you feel most comfortable with within your setup.
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#20
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullFrequency View Post
Yes, you can automate every setting of the plugins. Use preview mode, play with your settings and then either write it to the end of clip or highlight exactly what you want to write it to it. There's lots of ways to do it, but in the end they achieve the same thing, so it's what you feel most comfortable with within your setup.
Is it an HD only feature (I'm on Pro Tools 10)?
#21
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebbo View Post
Is it an HD only feature (I'm on Pro Tools 10)?
It's there with complete toolkit. You could try a workaround of disabling automation, getting your settings, copying them (shift, control, c) , enabling automation, highlight the area, and then write to end (which is hopefully available)
#22
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullFrequency View Post
It's there with complete toolkit. You could try a workaround of disabling automation, getting your settings, copying them (shift, control, c) , enabling automation, highlight the area, and then write to end (which is hopefully available)
there is no 'write to end' ....
I think my only option is to bounce
#23
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebbo View Post
- Boom Track 1 - Character A
- Boom Track 2 - Character B + C
- Radio Track 1 - Character A
- Radio Track 2 - Character B
- Radio Track 3 - Character C.
I don't think I understand the problem. That's five tracks. Okay, if you checkerboard Boom 2 you end up with six tracks. When you go to the next scene the format remains the same; you don't need new tracks for Boom A, Boom B/C, Lav A, Lav B and Lav C. Or are you talking about three entirely new characters?

And I don't see a problem with large track counts. I'm running a PT native system ( DIGI-002, PT9 on a Mac Xeon dual 2.66ghz). On a current project I have 20 Dialog tracks, 24 Foley tracks, 12 mono and eight (8) stereo Sound Effects tracks and three (3) stereo tracks for Music & Score. DX, Foley, Sound Effects and Music/Score are each on a stereo sub-buss. The dialog sub has an EQ, a compressor and a de-esser; the rest have an EQ and a limiter. Every track has an EQ. Some sound effects tracks have compressors and/or effects. Two effects sends/returns for reverbs (one mono, one stereo).

I've already sorted out the DX tracks during the dialog edit and then done the noise reduction; there's a lav track each for four main characters, four lav tracks for supporting/extra characters, and the boom is checkerboarded - that's 16 tracks. There's one futz track (police radio dispatcher), and there are three printed dialog effects tracks for the main characters (a vampire [pitched-down], a werewolf [animal sounds] and a witch [processed 'spell' DX]). Yes, I print some things when I'm close to mixing to save on processing power.
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27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
I don't think I understand the problem. That's five tracks. Okay, if you checkerboard Boom 2 you end up with six tracks. When you go to the next scene the format remains the same; you don't need new tracks for Boom A, Boom B/C, Lav A, Lav B and Lav C. Or are you talking about three entirely new characters?

And I don't see a problem with large track counts. I'm running a PT native system ( DIGI-002, PT9 on a Mac Xeon dual 2.66ghz). On a current project I have 20 Dialog tracks, 24 Foley tracks, 12 mono and eight (8) stereo Sound Effects tracks and three (3) stereo tracks for Music & Score. DX, Foley, Sound Effects and Music/Score are each on a stereo sub-buss. The dialog sub has an EQ, a compressor and a de-esser; the rest have an EQ and a limiter. Every track has an EQ. Some sound effects tracks have compressors and/or effects. Two effects sends/returns for reverbs (one mono, one stereo).

I've already sorted out the DX tracks during the dialog edit and then done the noise reduction; there's a lav track each for four main characters, four lav tracks for supporting/extra characters, and the boom is checkerboarded - that's 16 tracks. There's one futz track (police radio dispatcher), and there are three printed dialog effects tracks for the main characters (a vampire [pitched-down], a werewolf [animal sounds] and a witch [processed 'spell' DX]). Yes, I print some things when I'm close to mixing to save on processing power.
I think he's saying he adds a new track each time there's different sounding source material because he wants a different eq setting, hence ending up with many many dx tracks.
#25
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullFrequency View Post
I think he's saying he adds a new track each time there's different sounding source material because he wants a different eq setting, hence ending up with many many dx tracks.
Exactly, if the same character is in two different place (kitchen/traffic) in two scenes, I will have two tracks for his Lavs and the two for the Boom.
#26
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebbo View Post
there is no 'write to end' ....
I think my only option is to bounce
You don't have to write to end. You just have to write to the region you highlighted in the timeline.

If you end up bouncing and there's no better option then you could consider setting up the first group of tracks the way you like it, record (or bounce) to new track(s), then make that group of tracks "inactive and hidden". Move on to the next set and repeat and always record (or bounce) to the same track(s). That way you'll always have the original eq etc available. Just make active and tweak and redo the bounce/record if you need to.
#27
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebbo View Post
there is no 'write to end' ....
I think my only option is to bounce
There should be some sort of write to option in the automation window, you could use one of those instead
#28
27th April 2013
Old 27th April 2013
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
You don't have to write to end. You just have to write to the region you highlighted in the timeline.

If you end up bouncing and there's no better option then you could consider setting up the first group of tracks the way you like it, record (or bounce) to new track(s), then make that group of tracks "inactive and hidden". Move on to the next set and repeat and always record (or bounce) to the same track(s). That way you'll always have the original eq etc available. Just make active and tweak and redo the bounce/record if you need to.
I really can not find a way to edit the plugin and write the parameters as automation in the selected part of the edit window in Pro Tools 10 (No CPTK).

Your solution is great this way I can always come back to my old setting, I will start working this way, anyway would be great to find a solution for automation in the standard Pro Tools 10.

BTW in PT11 there is no CPTK, so the automation features will be the same as HD or you have to go HD for the whole automation features?
#29
28th April 2013
Old 28th April 2013
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bebbo View Post
I really can not find a way to edit the plugin and write the parameters as automation in the selected part of the edit window in Pro Tools 10 (No CPTK).
Well, that sucks. I use mostly PTHD but also Nuendo so I get all that is needed from those. Software companies suck donkey balls in general, but just in case you should double check your manual and make sure you're not missing something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bebbo View Post
BTW in PT11 there is no CPTK, so the automation features will be the same as HD or you have to go HD for the whole automation features?
I have no clue. I'm guessing there may be differences.
#30
28th April 2013
Old 28th April 2013
  #30
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JoeMilner is offline
Try this:
Select the clip
Put the track in Write
Loop Playback
Make sure the plugins are enabled for automation
Press play, adjust to your heart's content
Put the track in Touch and move on to the next clip

Usually what I do is Write all the plugin stuff, then put it in Touch and do a final Volume pass.

There are other features that can make this faster but I'm not familiar with the non HD system capabilities.

There's no reason you should need more than 6-8 DX tracks for the kind of film you're doing, pick the best channel and move the others to an (inactive) X track. Every single angle will have a different (slight or severe) setting, mix away
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