Roomtone and movement in dialog edit

[georgia]

me? none. I want clear and clear dialogue. I'll deal with the rest in sound design, dialogue editorial, Foley sessions and mix.

What do I normally get? just about everything from perfect dialogue to so much noise that we have to do ADR or I have to spend hours to get the dialogue to be workable.

[Mister_T]

If you have time I like that stuff to be moved to PFX tracks. Then you would fill the gaps on the DX tracks with tone. Best of both worlds- the "real" sound is there and also ready for the MnE, but can easily be muted or pulled down if it doesn't work and foley is working.

To my ears the pfx just work better if they are recorded well, but definitely better to have them separated from spoken word whenever possible.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Mister_T

If you have time I like that stuff to be moved to PFX tracks. Then you would fill the gaps on the DX tracks with tone. Best of both worlds- the "real" sound is there and also ready for the MnE, but can easily be muted or pulled down if it doesn't work and foley is working.

To my ears the pfx just work better if they are recorded well, but definitely better to have them separated from spoken word whenever possible.

I agree, but when I get stuff edited like this the problem I run into is the room tone jumping up in volume whenever the PFX comes in. If the room tone is "filled" in the holes on the DIA tracks, and then there is also that same room tone sound on the PFX track, when combined the room tone will jump up anywhere from 3dB to around 5dB in volume.

I haven't found an ideal way to stop this from happening and make it easy to mix. I was thinking about moving all the fill to a "fill" track(s) and that way I can mute them if I unmute the PFX, but can leave them playing if I end up using foley instead of the PFX.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Any solutions you've found? Am I the only one who notices this jump in room tone/noise level?

[soundboy]

You don't need to "fill'" where the PFX are if you are going to play them in the mix. If I know I'm going to use a PFX in the mix, then I will leave it in the DX tracks and make a copy of it in the PFX tracks that don't get played back during the mix. I save those tracks for the MnE. Then the PFX that get used also have the same processing as the DX, and the sound remains consistent in the DX tracks. If the director wants to use another track, then I just fill it then, and move on.

[ggegan]

You are asking for a definitive answer when the correct response is, it depends. Sometimes you need to remove the garbage, but sometimes you can clean things up to the point where the track sounds sterile and unnatural. Even just splitting the tracks can be an issue. If splitting solves a problem, then you should do it, but if by doing so you are just breaking up the flow of the dialog mix for no substantial gain, then all you have done is make the mixer's job more difficult.

You have to analyze each situation and determine what is going to achieve the best mix. Sometimes it will depend on the schedule - what is the best strategy to help the mixer get through things as fast as possible. Sometimes the aesthetics are more paramount than time, which might require a completely different approach. You can't depend on hard and fast rules, you have to consider the specific circumstance and come up with a strategy that will deliver the best results for the particular reality you are dealing with.

[Smallbudgetguru]

Originally Posted by ggegan

You are asking for a definitive answer when the correct response is, it depends. Sometimes you need to remove the garbage, but sometimes you can clean things up to the point where the track sounds sterile and unnatural. Even just splitting the tracks can be an issue. If splitting solves a problem, then you should do it, but if by doing so you are just breaking up the flow of the dialog mix for no substantial gain, then all you have done is make the mixer's job more difficult.

You have to analyze each situation and determine what is going to achieve the best mix. Sometimes it will depend on the schedule - what is the best strategy to help the mixer get through things as fast as possible. Sometimes the aesthetics are more paramount than time, which might require a completely different approach. You can't depend on hard and fast rules, you have to consider the specific circumstance and come up with a strategy that will deliver the best results for the particular reality you are dealing with.

A plus !

[akinla]

As you have figured out from these posts, every mixer has a different preference as to how the pfx and fill tracks are laid out. The bottom line is you should consult the mixer if possible. I make a separate pfx predub that I give to the fx mixer on the final, so he/she may use it as he/she sees fit. That way it automatically gets to the M&E as well. I generally prefer that all the production fx and movement is cut with the dialogue tracks. If you think it is not usable, just put it on the "X" tracks, but generally I recommend cutting everything as to cover one's rear.

[Tom Fleischman]

As Gary has said, it depends. Each situation is unique. No two films are alike. Here are some general guidelines as to what I like to see on first look at original dialogue elements when I begin a predub:

Where unwanted noise has been edited out of the sync track it should be filled with clean, matching room tone, from the same shot if possible. These fixes should be seamless in the edit.

When there is no dialogue, but movement/action is taking place in the sync track, it should be split onto a set of PFX tracks. There is no need to fill the dialogue track with roomtone when it splits to the PFX track unless it's a small transient sound like a cup down or a slap in the face, small handles will suffice. These tracks will likely be used in the mix. I like having the PFX with the dialogue session and I put them in the dialogue stem. This allows me to treat them along with the dialogue and it's easy enough to get them into the M&E when the time comes.

Lines of dialogue that are slated to be replaced with ADR should be split out of the sync track and these lines should all be kept in the session on a dedicated track or set of tracks. I may want to use them instead of ADR. The sync track should be filled for ADR and any movement that was removed with the line should be replaced with production movement from another area of the same track if possible. If not it should be carefully and completely foleyed.

Production alternates should be provided for any lines slated for ADR if possible. I always try the production alt first if the line is being replaced for noise or clarity problems. Unless ADR is being done for script or performance reasons I treat it as a last resort. If a production alt is being provided for a line that has not been covered in ADR then the original line should be split out, the track filled, and the original and all alts provided, clearly labeled, on separate tracks.

The dialogue editor should listen to and choose the best mic, or mics for each line of dialogue. If there is a boom track it should be provided if it might be useful. All original recordings for each shot should exist in the session on hidden and inactive tracks. If I run into a problem I may want to listen to all of the available recordings of the line.

Within each scene the tracks for the different shots should live on their own track (or set of tracks). Use common sense. Listen to the tracks and ask yourself if putting these two lines, that sound so different, so close together on the same track is going to make the mixer's job harder. Don't mix different camera angles on the same track if you can avoid it. Sets of tracks can be checkerboarded from scene to scene.

Follow these guidelines and your mixer should be pretty happy.

[mattiasnyc]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

I agree, but when I get stuff edited like this the problem I run into is the room tone jumping up in volume whenever the PFX comes in. If the room tone is "filled" in the holes on the DIA tracks, and then there is also that same room tone sound on the PFX track, when combined the room tone will jump up anywhere from 3dB to around 5dB in volume.

I haven't found an ideal way to stop this from happening and make it easy to mix. I was thinking about moving all the fill to a "fill" track(s) and that way I can mute them if I unmute the PFX, but can leave them playing if I end up using foley instead of the PFX.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Any solutions you've found? Am I the only one who notices this jump in room tone/noise level?

No, you're not the only one, but it depends.

For short PFX it usually doesn't matter in my experience. Even if there'd be a very brief jump it'll be covered by the "event" itself (door slam or whatever).

For longer sounds obviously it'll be a problem if you double up on the room tone so splitting it out and putting fill tone on a separate track allows you to choose/route so that you'll get either one or the other.

Depending on the situation another solution with long pfx is to denoise the effect on the PFX track. I've done this plenty of times and it works quite well. I know I know, it's not the job of the DG editor to denoise, but when it's either me doing the final mix as well or the re-recording or dialog predub engineer is ok with it it works very well.

[mattiasnyc]

Originally Posted by yazoo

Hi!
A question for all mixers out there.

How much movement and cloth noise etc do you want to be in the dialog tracks?

Or do you prefer it covered with "clean" room tone" everywhere and let the foley track take care of it?

/Benny

I'd want it split out on a PFX track with room tone to cover the hole in dialog on a separate track. That way I can choose whether or not to use it without losing any time.

Having said that I really think that there are so many different scenarios and preferences that it's virtually impossible to get a good answer that covers even most situations. If anything I'd say give the mixer the most flexibility with the most ease of use... fully knowing that appears and probably is contradictory...

[Smallbudgetguru]

Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman

As Gary has said, it depends. Each situation is unique. No two films are alike. Here are some general guidelines as to what I like to see on first look at original dialogue elements when I begin a predub:

Where unwanted noise has been edited out of the sync track it should be filled with clean, matching room tone, from the same shot if possible. These fixes should be seamless in the edit.

When there is no dialogue, but movement/action is taking place in the sync track, it should be split onto a set of PFX tracks. There is no need to fill the dialogue track with roomtone when it splits to the PFX track unless it's a small transient sound like a cup down or a slap in the face, small handles will suffice. These tracks will likely be used in the mix. I like having the PFX with the dialogue session and I put them in the dialogue stem. This allows me to treat them along with the dialogue and it's easy enough to get them into the M&E when the time comes.

Lines of dialogue that are slated to be replaced with ADR should be split out of the sync track and these lines should all be kept in the session on a dedicated track or set of tracks. I may want to use them instead of ADR. The sync track should be filled for ADR and any movement that was removed with the line should be replaced with production movement from another area of the same track if possible. If not it should be carefully and completely foleyed.

Production alternates should be provided for any lines slated for ADR if possible. I always try the production alt first if the line is being replaced for noise or clarity problems. Unless ADR is being done for script or performance reasons I treat it as a last resort. If a production alt is being provided for a line that has not been covered in ADR then the original line should be split out, the track filled, and the original and all alts provided, clearly labeled, on separate tracks.

The dialogue editor should listen to and choose the best mic, or mics for each line of dialogue. If there is a boom track it should be provided if it might be useful. All original recordings for each shot should exist in the session on hidden and inactive tracks. If I run into a problem I may want to listen to all of the available recordings of the line.

Within each scene the tracks for the different shots should live on their own track (or set of tracks). Use common sense. Listen to the tracks and ask yourself if putting these two lines, that sound so different, so close together on the same track is going to make the mixer's job harder. Don't mix different camera angles on the same track if you can avoid it. Sets of tracks can be checkerboarded from scene to scene.

Follow these guidelines and your mixer should be pretty happy.

Thanks for this Tom! Very clear and to the point. Makes perfect sense and these methods allow the most options in the mix. These are great guidelines. Thanks for sharing them!

[yazoo]

Thanks all for great inputs.

Have tried the method of splitting movement/action to the PFX tracks, and editing out loud transient to a second PFX channel.

This works great because it keeps the flow of the room tone/movement/action and keeps the option to use a either the PFX transient FX or the one from the foley editor.

This has help me a lot because it was really PITA editing long room tones fills during movement. I rather spend that time to find Alt takes etc

Ill sometimes find it difficult to merge the PFX with the dialog when there is cedar on the DX tracks.

But I solved it by using a spare Cedar unit on the PFX reassign track.

How do you guys deal with this?

/Benny

[akinla]

Well stated Tom!!

[brandoncross]

Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman

As Gary has said, it depends. Each situation is unique. No two films are alike. Here are some general guidelines as to what I like to see on first look at original dialogue elements when I begin a predub:

Where unwanted noise has been edited out of the sync track it should be filled with clean, matching room tone, from the same shot if possible. These fixes should be seamless in the edit.

When there is no dialogue, but movement/action is taking place in the sync track, it should be split onto a set of PFX tracks. There is no need to fill the dialogue track with roomtone when it splits to the PFX track unless it's a small transient sound like a cup down or a slap in the face, small handles will suffice. These tracks will likely be used in the mix. I like having the PFX with the dialogue session and I put them in the dialogue stem. This allows me to treat them along with the dialogue and it's easy enough to get them into the M&E when the time comes.

Lines of dialogue that are slated to be replaced with ADR should be split out of the sync track and these lines should all be kept in the session on a dedicated track or set of tracks. I may want to use them instead of ADR. The sync track should be filled for ADR and any movement that was removed with the line should be replaced with production movement from another area of the same track if possible. If not it should be carefully and completely foleyed.

Production alternates should be provided for any lines slated for ADR if possible. I always try the production alt first if the line is being replaced for noise or clarity problems. Unless ADR is being done for script or performance reasons I treat it as a last resort. If a production alt is being provided for a line that has not been covered in ADR then the original line should be split out, the track filled, and the original and all alts provided, clearly labeled, on separate tracks.

The dialogue editor should listen to and choose the best mic, or mics for each line of dialogue. If there is a boom track it should be provided if it might be useful. All original recordings for each shot should exist in the session on hidden and inactive tracks. If I run into a problem I may want to listen to all of the available recordings of the line.

Within each scene the tracks for the different shots should live on their own track (or set of tracks). Use common sense. Listen to the tracks and ask yourself if putting these two lines, that sound so different, so close together on the same track is going to make the mixer's job harder. Don't mix different camera angles on the same track if you can avoid it. Sets of tracks can be checkerboarded from scene to scene.

Follow these guidelines and your mixer should be pretty happy.

Agreed. I'm forwarding this to all my dx editors