Cinema playback levels and mixing (again)

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by narcoman

And you know what? I've mixed a LOT of score. And I've attended quite a few dubs. Something I've seen a couple of times on big action moves. Damn engineers wearing hearing protection. SURELY this is the issue. SURELY that pushes levels up. Cinemas turn down, producers shriek and push it louder... ?

And if I was mixing a movie like the last Batman movie,with a director who obviously must be half deaf, I wouldl be wearing hearing protection as well.

[philper]

Originally Posted by GregorioM

The current "standards" do not in any way address "a certain volume" in the cinema. All the current standards address is matching the volume in a cinema to the volume on the mix stage but they do not address what that volume should be. In other words, all the standard guarantees is that if I mix too loud on the mix stage it will sound too loud in the cinema but there is nothing in the current standards which defines what "too loud" is, that determination is entirely at the discretion/hearing ability/sanity of the director!

The current standard would work perfectly if A. Everyone stuck to it and B. All films, trailers and commercials were mixed at the same volume. Without addressing "B", cinemas have no option but to break with "A" and adjust the playback level to avoid customer complaints. An extreme example would be those instances where the re-recording mixers are having to use earplugs, we can say with some level of certainty that if it's unacceptably loud for the mixers it's also going to be unacceptable to the audience, unless the cinema turns it's levels down or provides the audience with earplugs!

To avoid this situation getting worse and it will get worse as more theatrical content gets mixed in lower than premier mix rooms, we need to standardise the volume of the mixes which the mix stages produce. Only then will matching the volume of the cinema to the mix stage be a standard which can be adhered to in practice. AFAIK, the best method we currently have for standardising perceived volume levels is the LUFS (or LKFS) system, although I'm not necessarily suggesting we implement LUFS in cinema specs the same as they are implemented in TV broadcast (R128 or ATSC A85) specs.

G

I think I'm agreeing with you, if you'll let me. The problem is directors trying to game the system.

philp

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

That's the point. So there should be the solution to avoid this "gaming".

Some day, the director will come and make you put a 120dB SPL white noise through 4 or 5 minutes of a movie for "special impressions"...

In the past, it was the technology, which didn't allow to break the rules (because it ended with distortion). There was also a company (Dolby), which at least tried to set right standards.

There are several organizations like SMPTE or CAS, which may cause the real discussion regarding this issue. I am sure, that there are another DCP formats come in the near future (not to mention Dolby Atmos) - there is a way to standardize the loudness problem for example incorporating metadata into the chain and set something similar to R.128, but designed for theatrical environment.

regards,
Kuba

[JoeMilner]

And then, they'll just turn the amps down "One click, or two clicks down?"

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

How about: NO knob in the amp?

Kuba

[nathand]

It has been suggested that the reason movies are being turned down is because the commercials are too loud. I'm calling "Bullocks." I wish a projectionist was in our group to confirm or deny this, but my impression is that the commercials are being played back off a different system than the movie. I'm talking specifically about Pacific's the Grove and Westfield Century City AMC (Los Angeles). For one, the "Pre-Show" is not framed on the screen in the same way. You can tell it shifts when the Trailers/Movie starts. Also - the "Pre-Show" sounds like it is only coming from behind the screen (not 5.1).

What's my point? They have different volume knobs, so don't blame the spots for your loud mixes.

[Steven1145]

Nathan, before DCP became widely used for movie projection, many cinemas were already using video servers to screen preshow content. I think that now most commercials and trailers are on DCP and screened from the same server/projector, but maybe there are legacy systems around.

But I agree with you: in today's world of automated cinema booths, there is absolutely no reason for the trailers/commercials to be the culprit, as the playback level can be set differently for pre-show and show content. It might all boils down to lazyness and/or disapearing projection operators, fear of customer rants (too loud!), and ignorance of the "too loud" cycle by stubborn/stupid/egomaniac directors and producers.


As for the previous comment about "damn engineers wearing earplugs" (not by you Nathan), first thing I'd like to say is that they are "mixers", not engineers... And when faced with dictatorial directors (hey, each movie is a sort if small banana republic complete with it's own dictator), it's either lose your hearing or lose your job... or wear earplugs. The cinema-goer will only be put through the high SPL once (for two hours straight if it's a M.Bay movie), but the mixers have to bear the insane levels asked by the fool director for 9 hours per day, for multiple weeks. Wouldn't YOU wear earplugs??
I'm not defending them, because they should try to educate their directors more. But on the other hand I do realise that even suggesting to a high-power director or producer that his ideal 747-at-liftoff-intimate-scene can very easily lead to dismissal, even for very experienced sound guys.
What's amazing is that even in Live sound, I believe that there are loudness rules emerging to protect the audience. God knows we've all been to concerts that were so f*****ng loud that we would wonder WTF the FOH engineers were doing. What we have right now is that the cinema owners are taking things into their own hands, but with no education or knowledge of why/what/when in sound. It must be said that not many concert producers have had this sort of attitude.

I'm slowly accepting the idea of loudness measurements for cinema, as long as we can still mix with as much dynamics as we like. Some things need to be a tad loud, but never insanely loud. So when the ball starts rolling with the SMPTE or AES or whoever is needed to write the rules, I think we should all get involved as much as possible.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Steven1145

The cinema-goer will only be put through the high SPL once (for two hours straight if it's a M.Bay movie), but the mixers have to bear the insane levels asked by the fool director for 9 hours per day, for multiple weeks. Wouldn't YOU wear earplugs??

Yes I would !! But that wasn't the point!!

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Henchman

And if I was mixing a movie like the last Batman movie,with a director who obviously must be half deaf, I wouldl be wearing hearing protection as well.

Exactly.

What a sorry state it's ended up in!!

[cjguitar]

There's definitely a problem with theaters turning down the level. I think you would be hard pressed to find a commercial theater even in Hollywood that doesn't turn down the level. I found out that even The Arclight in Hollywood is turned down to 6 on the Dolby box (we had a screening there not too long ago, and we toured the projection area/talked to the projectionist).

I for one don't have a problem with loud films, to an extent. Have you ever been in a war battle, car accident, had explosions go off near by, jump out of an airplane, flew a rocket, seen a giant transforming robot? I can't say I have for most of those, but there are plenty of things that I imagine are loud in reality that sometimes need to be loud in cinema to give the movie goer the "experience" of being there. I for one don't want to observe a story from a distance, I want to be "in the action" and sometimes that requires things to be loud. If patrons can't handle that, then maybe they should stay home or not watch big Hollywood blockbusters…

As far as earplugs are concerned, I've had times where we're working on a scene of constant screaming (think the final exorcism scene in a big exorcism movie), and I had to leave the room or wear in-ear headphones to block out some of the loudness (I mix the sound FX). It's fine when it goes by in real time for a 15 minute scene, but try listening to some of that stuff for hours…

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by cjguitar

There's definitely a problem with theaters turning down the level. I think you would be hard pressed to find a commercial theater even in Hollywood that doesn't turn down the level. I found out that even The Arclight in Hollywood is turned down to 6 on the Dolby box (we had a screening there not too long ago, and we toured the projection area/talked to the projectionist).

I for one don't have a problem with loud films, to an extent. Have you ever been in a war battle, car accident, had explosions go off near by, jump out of an airplane, flew a rocket, seen a giant transforming robot? I can't say I have for most of those, but there are plenty of things that I imagine are loud in reality that sometimes need to be loud in cinema to give the movie goer the "experience" of being there. I for one don't want to observe a story from a distance, I want to be "in the action" and sometimes that requires things to be loud. If patrons can't handle that, then maybe they should stay home or not watch big Hollywood blockbusters…

As far as earplugs are concerned, I've had times where we're working on a scene of constant screaming (think the final exorcism scene in a big exorcism movie), and I had to leave the room or wear in-ear headphones to block out some of the loudness (I mix the sound FX). It's fine when it goes by in real time for a 15 minute scene, but try listening to some of that stuff for hours…

I totally agree.

I should also say that while I will occasionally wear earplugs when the other mixer I'm working with is going over and over his tracks in a loud scene, I never have worn them when I am actually mixing myself, and I have never seen any other mixer do that either. There are often many times in certain mixes that require one mixer or the other to replay loud moments several times in order to get things right, but there is no reason for their partner to wear out their ears listening to the process if they aren't actually mixing themselves, so why not protect yourself. It's like tag team wrestling.

As Chris says, there are circumstances where a loud scene is demanded by the context of the movie. When you only listen to it once, it is appropriate, but when you have to go over it many times in order to mix it properly, it can wear you down. That is not to say that some films don't go overboard, but I would be reticent to blame the mixer for that, because there are generally other people pushing those decisions.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by cjguitar

There's definitely a problem with theaters turning down the level. I think you would be hard pressed to find a commercial theater even in Hollywood that doesn't turn down the level. I found out that even The Arclight in Hollywood is turned down to 6 on the Dolby box (we had a screening there not too long ago, and we toured the projection area/talked to the projectionist).

I for one don't have a problem with loud films, to an extent. Have you ever been in a war battle, car accident, had explosions go off near by, jump out of an airplane, flew a rocket, seen a giant transforming robot? I can't say I have for most of those, but there are plenty of things that I imagine are loud in reality that sometimes need to be loud in cinema to give the movie goer the "experience" of being there. I for one don't want to observe a story from a distance, I want to be "in the action" and sometimes that requires things to be loud. If patrons can't handle that, then maybe they should stay home or not watch big Hollywood blockbusters…

As far as earplugs are concerned, I've had times where we're working on a scene of constant screaming (think the final exorcism scene in a big exorcism movie), and I had to leave the room or wear in-ear headphones to block out some of the loudness (I mix the sound FX). It's fine when it goes by in real time for a 15 minute scene, but try listening to some of that stuff for hours…

There are lots of transforming robots round here - and they're very quiet

No problem with stuff being loud. It's excessive loud that is the problem. If you've ha to walk out - its too loud.

There's nothing else to be said - films are too loud in 2012.

Stay at home and dont watch blockbusters? Are you serious? How come this wasnt as much of an issue 5 years ago? It was virtually a none issue 10 years ago.

I'm not blaming mixers, by the way - if I was I'd be blaming myself partially; but when I walk into a cinema in west london and watch "Salmon Fishing in the Yemen" and THAT film is too loud in parts (it's a light hearted movie fercryingoutloud) something is wrong! It's the same loudness war perpetuated by idiot A&R in music. Why does any film have to be louder than , say , Lord of the Rings which was fine! Or louder than Tron:Legacy - also fine.

[Smallbudgetguru]

Originally Posted by narcoman

Stay at home and dont watch blockbusters? Are you serious? How come this wasnt as much of an issue 5 years ago? It was virtually a none issue 10 years ago.
.

This is due to technology, piracy, the iTunes and "i want it now" or "Me" generations. not mixing or playback levels.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Smallbudgetguru

This is due to technology, piracy, the iTunes and "i want it now" or "Me" generations. not mixing or playback levels.

So mixes being louder isn't because they're louder? It's because they're pirated? eh? I can't say I follow that logic too well!!

[Smallbudgetguru]

Originally Posted by narcoman

So mixes being louder isn't because they're louder? It's because they're pirated? eh? I can't say I follow that logic too well!!

Nothing like that. You missed my point, I'm saying piracy is one of the many reasons people don't goto theaters as much. slightly off topic to loudness war..

[Smallbudgetguru]

Duplicate post

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Smallbudgetguru

Nothing like that. You missed my point, I'm saying piracy is one of the many reasons people don't goto theaters as much. slightly off topic to loudness war..

I dont understand the response??

We're not discussing people not going to the cinema (although I can see why you might have read my post that way). No social impact stuff - just that in the last few years movies have gotten louder.

[Smallbudgetguru]

Originally Posted by narcoman

I dont understand the response??

We're not discussing people not going to the cinema (although I can see why you might have read my post that way). No social impact stuff - just that in the last few years movies have gotten louder.

Fair enough!

[Siggi_O]

Originally Posted by Kuba_Pietrzak

There are several organizations like SMPTE or CAS, which may cause the real discussion regarding this issue. I am sure, that there are another DCP formats come in the near future (not to mention Dolby Atmos) - there is a way to standardize the loudness problem for example incorporating metadata into the chain and set something similar to R.128, but designed for theatrical environment.

I believe this would be the best way to go, since we seem to work in an enviroment wich is starting to get out of control (the often mentioned louder mix->quieter playback spiral).
But I guess it would be hard to have something like R128 for movie theatres since especially here a film lives from its dynamics and overall loudness.
For Example: A quiet drama will never need the complete overall loudness of an actionmovie to tell its story, whereby this actionmovie will quite frankly be louder to transport the feeling wich it wants achieved.
To conquer this problem Dolby had a really good approch with its "Dialogue Level". Since for us humans its the most natural/important thing to listen to, general speech would imho be the best way to standardize levels. All of the other elements could evolve around this basis.
And as mentioned before by several other users it shouldn't be to hard to implement it metadataform wich can be read out by the DCP-Servers.

[Brent_in_Sydney]

Guys - I could be wrong here but I think what I'm reading is:

- the Europeans are talking about a standard for the content of the mix - ie a loudness spec for the audio.

- the US are talking about standards for theatrical system levels and calibration/playback. Two different things.

We currently have almost one of these - the room/playback spec -which is rapidly falling into decline with content levels all over the place between ads vs features vs pimply kids in the bio box vs complaints vs directors vs DCP etc

It would be nice to have both - a standard for dialnorm/LUFS for dialogue in features in addition to the room playback/xcurve spec.

"oh thats a pipedream etc" aside - wouldn't it be nice to have/enforce? And if we all agree, shouldn't we all band together for it in our various guilds/associations WW and discuss it and push for it to end the crap we are currently dealing with??

Cut the apathy, its "someone else's problem" etc
We are the solution guys, this is OUR...INDEPENDENCE DAY!
IT BEGINS HERE!
TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL!
etc

[ErikG]

All true Brent.
A worldwide sound mixer union!
Wohoo!

That would work, right?

[nzl62]

I think we all agree and accept that this a perpetual cycle. Mix louder, turn down, louder down etc.
And that we ought to all be working to the calibrated levels in our rooms but
that we seek ways of having our work stand up in the real world.

When I have spoken to Dolby uk, the move to DCP seemed an obvious way of incorporating so degree of level description at the very least, either as metadata or a simple LEQ reading for the film( better than nothing). The theatre owners would then take an overall loudness view and maybe pull back the very loudest films.
I know its fraught with complications, but my clients simply don't buy the mix at 7 playback at 4.5 in the real world, they are starting to really question the whole thing.
They simply want their film to stand up even if the theatres are running at 3.8/ 4.5 and who can blame them.
Franky its refreshing to hear that some cinemas are playing at 6! I for one have never had anything played at 7 outside of cast and crew and festivals

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by Siggi_O

I believe this would be the best way to go, since we seem to work in an enviroment wich is starting to get out of control (the often mentioned louder mix->quieter playback spiral).
But I guess it would be hard to have something like R128 for movie theatres since especially here a film lives from its dynamics and overall loudness.
For Example: A quiet drama will never need the complete overall loudness of an actionmovie to tell its story, whereby this actionmovie will quite frankly be louder to transport the feeling wich it wants achieved.
To conquer this problem Dolby had a really good approch with its "Dialogue Level". Since for us humans its the most natural/important thing to listen to, general speech would imho be the best way to standardize levels. All of the other elements could evolve around this basis.
And as mentioned before by several other users it shouldn't be to hard to implement it metadataform wich can be read out by the DCP-Servers.

Don't you think that leads to dialogue buried in the mix to be able to make the rest louder?
And, of course, that metadata should NOT be possible to be changed by anyone, as it is now with AC-3.

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

Very good points taken.

There is one thing, I would not agree, that ads make mixers to mix movies louder. Absolutely not, at least here in Poland.

We have the rule (or tech spec if you wish), that theatrical ads must be mixed with overall loudness no more than 82 Leq(m). So because of their content (most of them are dialog or VO driven from wall to wall), they are quieter than movie trailers.

Movie trailers can be mixed up to 85 Leq(m), and because of the convention they're done (lots of soft moments to do the trick) - the strongest parts of them can much louder any of commercial spots.

Movies, which are loud were mixed the way to be loud and I do not think that there was any comparison between the currently mixed film and other print master to check, if the mix is softer or "loud enough".

regards,
Kuba

[GregorioM]

Originally Posted by cjguitar

If patrons can't handle that, then maybe they should stay home or not watch big Hollywood blockbusters…

With all due respect, and I do have respect for your knowledge/experience, your suggestion is unrealistic with the current situation. What happens in practice, is that some patrons who "can't handle" it put up with it anyway, some few complain and some others do stay at home. The last two groups of people are very bad for our sector of the film industry and for the film industry as a whole. The sad part is, as a film patron myself, I quite frequently agree with the complainers and stay at homers. If I want to experience physical discomfort or pain for entertainment I can go to "Madame Sadie's House of Correction", I'm looking for a different type of entertainment when I go to the cinema!

As a patron, what I want is for normal dialogue to be right in the middle of my comfort zone, for loud dialogue to be at the upper end of my comfort zone and for explosions (and similar specific SFX) to go beyond, maybe even significantly beyond, my comfort zone (for a short period). What I don't want is normal dialogue and therefore virtually the entire film being at or beyond the limit of my comfort zone, with just the odd few seconds here and there of respite.

Originally Posted by cjguitar

...there are plenty of things that I imagine are loud in reality that sometimes need to be loud in cinema to give the movie goer the "experience" of being there. I for one don't want to observe a story from a distance, I want to be "in the action" and sometimes that requires things to be loud.

R128 does not in any way affect the mixer's ability to sometimes make things extremely loud. The R128 spec allows for more dynamic range than any mixer currently uses or that any cinema sound system could reproduce!

What the R128 spec attempts to achieve is an overall consistency in average perceived loudness from one film/program to the next. Because it is an average over the duration of the entire film there is provision for extreme variations in dynamic range. We don't have to implement LUFS as per the R128 specs, so theatrical content would not have to achieve a long term average of 23LUFS (+-1dB). We could set a maximum long term average of say 31LUFS, which no film can exceed. So, a director might want to produce a quiet drama with a long term average of say 35LUFS but Michael Bay (or anyone else) wouldn't be able to exceed a long term loudness of 31LUFS. It shouldn't be too difficult to implement a theatrical LUFS spec which would allow Saving Private Ryan to pass (without any changes) but fail Transformers.

Once tests have been carried out to ascertain what the maximum LUFS level should be to avoid films sounding too loud (all the way through) at FL 7, only then can the film industry go about finding a way to enforce a FL 7 setting at cinemas. If all this happens, only then IMHO, will your suggestion I quoted above be practical.

We're getting ahead of ourselves here though and talking about how we should implement LUFS. We need people and organisations with influence (CAS, SMPTE, MPSE, etc.) to agree that there is a problem in the first place and to form a consensus to address it with some sort of loudness control. Then we can get into the details of what system we use to accomplish that task. IMHO, the current approach is the worst imaginable; do nothing and hope it gets better by itself or worse, stick our heads in the sand and not acknowledge there is a problem.

Originally Posted by Brent_in_Sydney

It would be nice to have both - a standard for dialnorm/LUFS for dialogue in features in addition to the room playback/xcurve spec.

Cut the apathy, its "someone else's problem" etc
We are the solution guys, this is OUR...INDEPENDENCE DAY!

Thank you Brent, that's what I was trying to say in my previous two posts.

The strange thing is, as I see it, those people who appear to be the most apathetic are those who in all likelihood are the ones whose jobs are most at risk. History teaches us time and again that it's a mistake to do nothing or fight for the status quo when the world is changing around us.

Currently the bigger Dolby approved mix facilities have 3 main selling points:
1. They are the only ones allowed to make a printmaster for 35mm film.
2. Only these rooms can create mixes which translate to the cinema.
3. The skill/experience/reputation of the personnel.
When films are only distributed on DCP and no Dolby printmasters are required, many lower budget films will avoid the mixing and licensing costs and the Dolby approved mix facilities will start loosing their low budget film work to smaller, cheaper mix facilities. This will result in more films being mixed with inappropriate levels, which will cause wider discrepancies in levels between Dolby mix facilities and cinemas. In turn, this will result in Dolby facilities being less able to produce mixes which translate well, thereby losing their second main selling point and even more of the low/mid budget film market. How many low/mid budget films can the Dolby mix facilities in which you work afford to loose every year, before they cease to be financially viable?? Eventually, it will be just the blockbusters and a few other high budget films/projects a year with enough money and desire to pay a huge premium for selling point #3 and still use the bigger, Dolby facilities. Probably, only a few of these facilities will still be in business in 10 years time and those that are, will almost certainly have had to rationalise/streamline their business.

I hope I'm wrong, please, someone point out the hole in my logic!

There's nothing which can be done about selling point #1 which almost certainly is soon to be gone forever. Point #2 on the other hand can potentially be solved but only if those with influence get together and actually start trying to solve it!!

G

[nucelar]

I think the system for restricting the loudness of a movie to a specific limit should be a purely technical process, fully detached from the creative/ artistic process and posterior to it, like a kind of simple mastering.
Directors think of their movie as a "canvas", nobody can tell them the to make something not so loud because of norm xyz . This won't change as long as film is considered an art form.

Maybe the noble concept of "equal calibration in dubstage and theater" has become counter-productive. If the director knew "No matter how loud I hear it here, it will end up sounding just as loud as anyone else" maybe then we will return to normal levels.

In that sense LUFS is the perfect tool for broadcast now. Mix as you please, you are free, hell, you can even mix in an uncalibrated environment, then normalize the loudness in one simple step and you're set. What are the reasons a LUFS limit can't be applied to theatrical?

On the other hand I think the main cause of the problem now is that theater owners want to avoid liabilities, and they have the right to do so. There should be certification in place which guarantees that the cinema sound system is calibrated and therefore that the listener experience is exactly what the filmmaker intends, loudness wise. (or if a Loudness standard is ever implemented, that it complies) Then they have their backs covered, no more refund claims.
Cheers

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by nucelar

There should be certification in place which guarantees that the cinema sound system is calibrated and therefore that the listener experience is exactly what the filmmaker intends, loudness wise.

That's what the THX certification program was supposed to do. It wasn't perfect, but it was a big step forward.

[Steven1145]

Originally Posted by ggegan

That's what the THX certification program was supposed to do. It wasn't perfect, but it was a big step forward.

And cost and arm and a leg for the studios involved at the time. But I agree that is was a good initiative. Dolby tried that road with the Dolby Premier certification, but too late in my opinion.

Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk

[Siggi_O]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

Don't you think that leads to dialogue buried in the mix to be able to make the rest louder?
And, of course, that metadata should NOT be possible to be changed by anyone, as it is now with AC-3.

Of course it shouldn't be changeable. Maybe I was a bit tired when I wrote that . What I actually meant was that it's probably technically achieveable to have Servers wich can use the Metadata properly (as you said, similar to the AC-3 Decoders in DVD-Players, Televisions, etc.).

On the dialogue subject:
Thinking that most directors and producers lay a great interest in understandable dialogue this problem would probably sort it self out on its own. I believe that some might try it at the beginning but will soon have to give in to customer complaints.
And in the dialogue being the "center of the universe" one could maybe achieve the best listening enviroment for the consumer since there is a clear and destinct reference (that beeing normal level speech) and all other actions around that also reference that point. That beeing a movie shot in a house will of most likely be quiet and not have a very high infinite loudness in comparison to a actionmovie, but the loudness reference to the viewer will probably always be speech level and on that basis actually telling the audience alot more about it's enviroment.

Do you think that Filmmakers would take the risk of suffering from cristisism by the viewer because of not understandable dialogue?

Now, this thought process might still have a flaws and if there certainly a lot of great alternative ideas. I'm just trying to add another thinking line wich I find a very sensible approach

[ErikG]

So would you folks "dare" to measure your feature mixes using a normal LKFS/LUFS meter and reporting it online, anonymously and without the title given of course, but with some basic info on the type of film, mix monitor level and some comments?

As its not our IP then as long as its public it really has to be without titles and doing it anonymously.

That would give us a database of known facts to start with, all compared with a already existing metering system.