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TV Commercial loudness - Australia
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groovenz
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21st September 2012
Old 21st September 2012
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TV Commercial loudness - Australia

Hi, a question for any Australia-based mixers - what loudness/level are you currently outputting TV commercial mixes at?

My understanding is that mixes need to conform to -24LKFS loudness as per OP29/OP36, but I spoke to a Sydney-based engineer recently who is still outputting hot mixes limited to -10db, without any QC issues.

What level should I be outputting at to meet QC and still be competitive on air?

The TVCs I work on are generally standard-definition dispatches. Any insight appreciated, as I can't check my mixes on-air as I don't live in Australia. Many thanks!
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21st September 2012
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is the -10dB he is talking about RMS or peak? unless he's talking about the relative dBFS amplitude, it's hard to compare with LKFS?
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21st September 2012
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I have not had one request for -24LKFS in commercials thus far. (In long form its popping up...) If you do a -10db mix referencing VUs @ -20db, you will be totally fine!

It would be worth asking for a spec sheet just in case, but I have not heard of a single rejection for -10db
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groovenz
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21st September 2012
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Quote:
is the -10dB he is talking about RMS or peak? unless he's talking about the relative dBFS amplitude, it's hard to compare with LKFS?
He would be talking about -10dbfs peak, and brickwall limiting to that value with not much dynamic range, so the result would be a louder-sounding mix than one conforming to -24LKFS.
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21st September 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt82aust View Post
I have not had one request for -24LKFS in commercials thus far. (In long form its popping up...) If you do a -10db mix referencing VUs @ -20db, you will be totally fine!

It would be worth asking for a spec sheet just in case, but I have not heard of a single rejection for -10db
Thanks Matt! I did ask for some specs from the client, but I've just been referred to OP29 etc which do reference the -24LKFS value. Do you think it's best to limit the dynamic range and push it against the -10dbfs ceiling? That's what I'm usually asked to do for NZ!

Interestingly, I just received the new specs today for NZ broadcast, and we're being asked to deliver at -24 LKFS from 1st Jan 2013.
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21st September 2012
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Till we are notified further op48 is the guideline...no mention of brickwalling at -10...more about NOT limiting for loudness.....I have an output limiter set AT -6.5dbfs just in case..dont go near it really..stay below -20RMS and u should be good..only time I have had an ad rejected by QC is being over -20RMS ..and yep NZ is moving to-24LKFS in Jan so aust should go at the same time..and about time.
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21st September 2012
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Thanks guys, appreciate the help. Definitely looking forward to that -24LKFS standard coming through.
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21st September 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groovenz View Post
He would be talking about -10dbfs peak, and brickwall limiting to that value with not much dynamic range, so the result would be a louder-sounding mix than one conforming to -24LKFS.
You'd probably be looking around -18LKFS then? Unless it really is squashed to hell. Might be worth asking, I'd be interested to know how hard he's hitting the limiter and what overall loudness he is achieving.
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21st September 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiopo View Post
You'd probably be looking around -18LKFS then? Unless it really is squashed to hell. Might be worth asking, I'd be interested to know how hard he's hitting the limiter and what overall loudness he is achieving.
I imagine that it would be around -18LKFS if you measured it, though I guess it's beside the point really, if working to a spec based on RMS and peak rather than loudness measurement.
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21st September 2012
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OP 48 is extremely vague in most regards. (Dont EQ harshly.. Dont over compress etc etc) OP29 and 36 I believe gives any reference to levels. They actually stipulate it is ok for it to be at -9dbFS.

From OP-29
Quote:
8.1.5 The alignment level of the PCM Audio Signal (AES) shall be minus 20 dB with respect to the onset of digital clipping i.e. minus 20dBFS (SMPTE RP.155).
8.1.6 The quasi peak recorded audio level8, as measured on a quasi peak reading instrument, shall not exceed 11dB above alignment level i.e. -9 dBFS.
In saying that, -10 is also acceptable, and if I do not know where my program is going to, will sometimes mix to that peak with the same relative loudness. (1db more relative limiting)

The fact of the matter is to get consistent readings on your VU meters, your program will be really squashed. If you don't have access to good VU's, you can use the waves Dorrough meters quite well from my experience.

Don't forget it is essential to have 12 frames of silence top and tail of the spot.

If you want me to check anything over for you please feel free to send me something sound AT mattperrott DOT tv
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21st September 2012
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Thanks, will definitely keep that in mind. Cheers
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13th November 2012
Old 13th November 2012
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Hi all, Buzzard here...
I have a question for the NZ guys that have to conform their broadcast mixes to LKFS as of January 2013...

What software/hardware are you using to measure this?

I send a lot of TVC Mixes to NZ and are still using OP48 (-10 DBFS) as the Mastering measurement, to deliver WAV 48KHz 16bit files...

Cheers.
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17th November 2012
Old 17th November 2012
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Quote:
I have a question for the NZ guys that have to conform their broadcast mixes to LKFS as of January 2013...

What software/hardware are you using to measure this?
Hi Buzzard,

I actually haven't had to deliver any mixes for January yet, but when I do I'll initially be using the Dolby Media Meter for measurement. I'm planning on switching to Nugen's VisLM though, as DMM is highly CPU intensive. Nugen also has a plugin for conforming existing mixes called LM-Correct which I'll be trying out.
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6th March 2014
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A few years since this thread was started.

What levels are people delivering content to TV as of March 2014, still -10dbFS or the newer -24dbFS ??

Cheers
Matt
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13th March 2014
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Hey Matt,
It's definitely -24LKfs +/-1dB (not dBfs).

Regards,
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13th March 2014
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Thanks Matt

So is there any spec for the dbFS component of the readings ?
Seems IBU have a dbTP(True Peak) spec of -2dbTP.

Just finishing off a music DVD & was wondering if it best to use the broadcast standard for the deliverables as it may be used for TV ?

Looks like NUGEN LMCorrect can crunch files into any desired level output, probably a good way to conform levels, hopefully won't create artifacts.
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13th March 2014
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Whilst I'mnot sure of the specifics regarding DVD, I know that with the current broadcast standard of OP59 (-24LKfs & TP-2dBfs), it also needs to support the older OP48 and therefore TP of -9dBfs. A true peak of -2dBfs is almost impossible to get to in real terms, when working on short for commercials and still maintaining an average of -24LKfs for the duration of the program. (I work in advertising, so there maybe a lot more information about pertaining to long form work that's more important to you).
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