DCP sound & first film mixing

[georgia]

The DCP "mix" is the same "mix" for any theatrical release.... but there are specific delivery requirements for DCP. First off, you should be mixing at Least LCR for theatrical. The phantom center is not going to work in a big room where people are sitting all over the sound field. You can deliver in 5.1 with empty tracks if you need to. I would personally recommend doing the mix in 5.1 since a very basic 5.1 mix really doesn't take a lot more time anyway. Also, even though you CAN deliver empty tracks, doesn't mean that some kid in QC will not fail the mix due to "missing audio"... (whether its really missing or not )


Get a copy of the DCP spec and read it. it's just a digital presentation spec.

Also if you have never delivered a theater mix, do some research here and elsewhere.. there is an enormous amount of information here on this board, on mixing for theater, calibration and room setup, and delivery specs.

cheers
geo

[jujumies]

Hey, thanks for the reply. The thing is that surprise surprise I have to be ready within few days..:( I wasn't the one who make the schedule. I have a lot of experience in studio work (mixing and producing) but this movie mixing is another world with its own standards etc.... totally.

I have done searches regarding DCP and I have also found a lot of info but haven't found the actual instructions what to do? How do I prepare my files to DCP?

As I mentioned regarding the schedule I probably don't have time to start mixing to 5.1 so I just have to make this stereo mix work. You mentioned delivering 5.1 with empty tracks?

Any help will be appreciated...

Simo

Originally Posted by georgia

The DCP "mix" is the same "mix" for any theatrical release.... but there are specific delivery requirements for DCP. First off, you should be mixing at Least LCR for theatrical. The phantom center is not going to work in a big room where people are sitting all over the sound field. You can deliver in 5.1 with empty tracks if you need to. I would personally recommend doing the mix in 5.1 since a very basic 5.1 mix really doesn't take a lot more time anyway. Also, even though you CAN deliver empty tracks, doesn't mean that some kid in QC will not fail the mix due to "missing audio"... (whether its really missing or not )


Get a copy of the DCP spec and read it. it's just a digital presentation spec.

Also if you have never delivered a theater mix, do some research here and elsewhere.. there is an enormous amount of information here on this board, on mixing for theater, calibration and room setup, and delivery specs.

cheers
geo

[Branko]

Technically, you should deliver 24-bit 48KHz PCM Linear files, like .wav and that would be it. The best way is to deliver discrete files, not interleaved. The length of the file should be equal to the length of the picture (that will make it easier for the DCP house), and you should put a "sync beep" that matches to the one in picture, usually 48 frames before the first frame of action.

Now, what are you going to put into those files is a bigger problem, I guess. As Geo said, at least 3 front channels should have some sound...

[Peter Morrison]

Originally Posted by jujumies

Any help will be appreciated...

Simo

You need to deliver audio for the creation of the DCDM (Digital Cinema Distribution Master) the completed DCDM with image, sound, and subtitles will be merged into an MXF and finally encoded into your DCP (Digital Cinema Package)

The audio portion of the DCDM is:
Broadcast Waves
24 bits
48.000 kHz or 96.000 kHz (check with your post supervisor/production)
digital reference of -20 dBFS Pink Noise
Channel Mapping as follows:
1 Left
2 Right
3 Center
4 LFE
5 Left Surround
6 Right Surround
7 Left Center (if needed)
8 Right Center (if needed)

You should also read the Digital Cinema System Specification that is where all of this info can be found

Peter

[jujumies]

By the way its a rock documentary and most of the sound is recorder all over the world by the cameraman.. At times the quality of the sound is pretty bad..

Can I survive the stereo-surround problem with this:

S360 Surround Panner Plugin | Waves

?

And what comes to DCP -I though that sound files require some pitching down ..?

Simo

ps. You guys are life savers here for a dumbass like me...

Originally Posted by Peter Morrison

You need to deliver audio for the creation of the DCDM (Digital Cinema Distribution Master) the completed DCDM with image, sound, and subtitles will be merged into an MXF and finally encoded into your DCP (Digital Cinema Package)

The audio portion of the DCDM is:
Broadcast Waves
24 bits
48.000 kHz or 96.000 kHz (check with your post supervisor/production)
digital reference of -20 dBFS Pink Noise
Channel Mapping as follows:
1 Left
2 Right
3 Center
4 LFE
5 Left Surround
6 Right Surround
7 Left Center (if needed)
8 Right Center (if needed)

You should also read the Digital Cinema System Specification that is where all of this info can be found

Peter

[Branko]

What was the camera speed?

[mgoorevich]

Well, lets assume you are in trouble by three reasons.
1. You never mixed in surround and you don't know what is this all about and what you should be aware of.
2. You didn't mixed in surround this project, so either there is nothing to fix.
3. You have no time to re-mix you stereo to 5.1 by even someone who knows what he is doing.
4. You didn't mix it on the mix stage.

Still you need to survive. Although it's tricky and the result will be more than just a compromise, plus you'll get lots of nasty surprises...but you will deliver a DCP at the end, if you'll do one of the following.
You need to upmix your stereo to at least LCR of 5.1 mix.
Try these plugins: Waves UM226
Beware os LsRs setting and LFE. Better mute them if not sure.
Or if you are on TDM try a TC UnWrap a more sophisticated plugin.
Also there are many good threads about Soundfield UPM-1 plugin. (never tried it my self though).
Or you can try some easier but maybe more robust way if your mix is more or less phase coherent: L to L, R to R, L to C@-3dB, R to C@-3dB

There are also some MS games for subtracting a solid mono signal for C but then you must be very careful about your Side as it will contain also the M information.

But the real theatrical mix must be mixed from the scratch as 5.1 format.
And it must be mixed on the proper mix stage.


Best of luck!

[jujumies]

Hi,

I think the camera was canon mark ii. I got the audio files as .omf file. Everything was 48khz andf 16bit...

Simo

Originally Posted by Branko

What was the camera speed?

[danijel]

No, camera speed is in frames per second (fps). Can be 23.97, 24, 25, 29.97. Check the properties of the QuckTime video file they gave you, or ask the editor.

[minister]

I have done a bunch of Theatrical mixes that were destined for DCP. Never once read the DCP Spec.

You need to learn how to mix for Cinema, one way or tha otha.

[Jussi]

Simo, give Kalevalastudio a call. Sami might be able to help you. Altho something tells me there isnt much budget on this one...?

[jujumies]

No budget at all..

Simo

Originally Posted by Jussi

Simo, give Kalevalastudio a call. Sami might be able to help you. Altho something tells me there isnt much budget on this one...?

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by jujumies

Hi,

I'm mixing my first film that will be in theatre distribution. I was asked to do a DCP mix also. Can someone please explain what it is all about? I know its Digital Cinema Package and is for movie theatres but how to actually do it? And is there anything else I should be aware of when delivering the final sound files? I'm mixing stereo so is there something what comes to theatres being 5.1?



Simo

You mixed a film for theatre distribution in stereo? Very bad idea. Discrete L/R-Stereo doesn't work in cinemas unless you are sitting right in the sweet spot, which is why the center speaker is the most important one.
I'd highly recommend to play your mix back at least once in a calibrated cinema stage before you deliver it for printing.
You'll be surprised how it will sound unless you mixed it in a calibrated environment.
Did you mix it against Dolby reference? (-20dBFs=85dB(c)SPL per channel)?

(Just asking, because it sounds like you have never mixed for cinema before). If you mixed it like a piece of music you might need to provide hearing protection to your audience as well. But maybe you are aware about volume calibration in cinema audio?

[Henchman]

Why are you mixing a movie for the there, when you have zero experience in post as it is?
And why open yourself up to a huge nightmare, if there's no budget?

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

I am also sorry to say that, but there is LOTS of things you need to know and understand, before you get your hands into cinema mixing.

Mixing for tv, especially in stereo is much much more forgiving.

The quality and freq response of theatrical speakers and wider and (usually) better, than typical speakers in tv set, so mixing is much more challenging.

It is also not so easy to do a mix with near field speakers, so it would sound good in theater. It is all about calibration, distance, eq, dynamics and so on.

There is also need to mix at least LCR, most of spoken words should go to the center channel.

What is more, the 5.1 mix is not like putting a stereo signal through a "magic plugin" and end up with good sounding cinema mix. It is more a creation, which is planning even at sound editorial stage, that these audio go to C, those to L R, other do LsRs.

If I were you, I would go and talk with producers - if they give money for theatrical mix, they will have it. Otherwise what they can have is stereo multimedia/internet/tv mix.

Mixing for cinema in 5.1 is SOOOO different, comparing to mixing music in stereo.

Best regards from the other side of Baltic.
Kuba

[jujumies]

This is a kind of post that is not really relevant here. I'm looking for help and also have got it -thank you so much for that. I'm actually confident that the results will be good taking into account the resources we have for the project. This a new learning experience for me and that's why I'm also doing it.

By the way you can check out the trailer that was done primary to web:

KNUCKLEBONEHEAD trailer | Facebook

Simo

Originally Posted by Henchman

Why are you mixing a movie for the there, when you have zero experience in post as it is?
And why open yourself up to a huge nightmare, if there's no budget?

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by jujumies

This is a kind of post that is not really relevant here. I'm looking for help and also have got it -thank you so much for that. I'm actually confident that the results will be good taking into account the resources we have for the project. This a new learning experience for me and that's why I'm also doing it.

In that case you will learn it the hard (and very expensive way) was I guess

Go ahead, deliver you mix for DCP-mastering and cross your fingers.

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

Originally Posted by jujumies

This is a kind of post that is not really relevant here. I'm looking for help and also have got it -thank you so much for that.

Yes, we are trying to help you. I said, this was a difficult thing, you might meet lots of problems, both production and artistic. And by describing the complexity of those problems, I/we would like you to avoid them.

However, I would also second to apple-q: "Go ahead, deliver you mix for DCP-mastering and cross your fingers"

best,
Kuba

[jujumies]

Well I really don't see any other way here. I'm doing my best and I'm pretty sure that if there would be a decent budget -there would be also a hired movie sound specialist- but sometimes you have to get the best out of what you have at your disposal. None of the guys in the project are professionals -that doesn't change the fact that the whole movie looks pretty darn good..

Simo

[conleec]

Well, I'm gonna jump in where even angels fear to tread. I'm a picture editor who only dabbles in audio post, and I've done TONS of "mixes" for film festivals, etc. Low rent stuff, for amateur filmmakers, who finally have gotten a shot at having their film shown in a big room. It's exciting for them, and if you do the best you can, it'll sound fine.

Yes, there are specifications, levels, tricks of the trade, and years of experience that go into a "proper" theatrical mix. But thousands of films a year play at film festivals around the globe and I haven't heard of an audience member yet being injured by a poor mix. I'm sure you'll do fine.

Having said that, the advice you've received here more than once about mixing at least LCR is good for big rooms. Good luck and let us know how it comes out.

Chris Conlee

[Henchman]

Chris, nobody is suggesting anyone will get hurt.
But, it wont exactly help a movie reach its full potential either.

I'm sure you know the difference a good picture edit and a bad picture edit makes.
Or a film that hasn't had proper color correction done to it.

Nobody will gut hurt if either of those aren't done well either.

Personally, my attitude has always been, if you can't don't right, then don't do it at all.
If you can't afford to do a 90 minute feature properly, then make it a short.

[conleec]

Agree completely. My only point is, it's kinda pointless to pile on the original poster too hard, since he clearly stated the parameters of his gig. Given that he's a professional with experience mixing audio (albeit not for cinema), I'm sure with some guidance he can create a listenable mix for his audience. Nobody is arguing that it couldn't (or shouldn't) be done differently if and when the film gets more money for distribution. And yes, it's also true that a substandard mix can hurt the film's chances down the road in certain circumstances. I guess that's the gamble the producers have made.

Chris Conlee

[Henchman]

Chris, I don't think we are piling on.
I think it's more of a cautionary thing.
I'm not sure, but it seems like the OP has zero experience with audio-post, but mainly has a music audio background. Coming from the same background, I know that they are miles apart in mix methodology.

You, as a picture editor, have to deal with audio on a daily basis, and know from doing the So-called avid and temp guides for clients, what needs to be done for an acceptable soundtrack.

[conleec]

Fair'nuf, I guess I am making basic assumptions about things like knowledge of at least minimal foley, etc. Not to take anything away from the OP, because I'm sure he's quite well qualified and accomplished in the field of music mixing, but I do agree the producers have perhaps made a mistake in not finding someone with cinema mixing experience for this project.

However, having said that, we all start someplace, and I hope the project comes out well for everybody involved.

Chris Conlee

[jujumies]

Hi,

Here's some update of how things went with my first movie mixing project. First of all thanks a lot to those who helped me. I got lot of good advices & pieces of information from here, few phone numbers that I used and got lot of help from there as well.

Like I mentioned in my posts, Initially I made a stereomix of the movie but then ended up doing my first 5.1 mix in a surround studio.. I had an opportunity to check out my mix in a movie theatre and I immediately figured out so many things there. I added tons of dynamics and also worked with the 5.1 as much as I could -within the schedule we had. I ended up doing pretty conventional 5.1 mix so just made sure that the bottom is kicking like hell, dialogue is solid and clear, opened up the rear channels so that the sound widens in theatre a bit. Few days ago the production team was checking out the movie again for the second time in theatre after some corrections that were done with the sound, color etc. they reported that the sound was more than they ever hoped for. I'm ready.

Just wanted to let you know that the project went really well after all. The producer and the production team is really satisfied with the sound and I feel that I scratched the surface of some new world... But again thanks for the help.

As I said I am really glad I got help from you guys but to those who were cynical and even said that I shouldn't do this project because I am inexperienced in movie mixing I would like to say that I would never take an assignment if I wouldn't be sure that I could handle it and make it work. Sound is sound and even its a fact that music mixing for albums is totally different to movie mixing I knew that with bit of a research I could make it work. And I did and I must say that I'm proud as hell. In order to become good you got to have balls and you have to be ready to step into difficult situations. You learn best when you are out of your comfort zone. But after saying this I don't promote for screwing up projects in order to learn either.

Tomorrow is the premier for the movie. I am going to check it out and get wasted...

Thanks again and see you guys,

Best regards,

Simo

[conleec]

Congratulations, and thanks for the update. Glad it came out well. Enjoy the premiere and have a drink for me too.

Chris

[jujumies]

Thanks! I will do that...

Simo

Originally Posted by conleec

Congratulations, and thanks for the update. Glad it came out well. Enjoy the premiere and have a drink for me too.

Chris

[JoeMilner]

May be too late, but try to get a few minutes at the theater to make sure they're playing back at the proper level!

Good luck, have a great time!