Building Mix Suite in existing theater, costing it out.

[ggegan]

I'm a big fan of Bluesky speakers, I use them myself, and the BMC is great for music or editorial use, but for a mix stage you are going to need something a bit more sophisticated for bass management. You should invest in a BSS Blu 16 or something similar, which will handle the crossovers for bass management and also has 12 band parametric EQs or 32 band graphic EQs for tuning the monitors as well as delays for time aligning the various drivers.

You can easily spend $100k for a very modest but professional mix room just on gear and software, and that's buying used where possible. I know people who have set up mix rooms in their garage who have spent more than that. I spent more than that on my room, which is in a spare bedroom. You could also spend 5 times that much, depending on the choices you make.

[philper]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I'm a big fan of Bluesky speakers, I use them myself, and the BMC is great for music or editorial use, but for a mix stage you are going to need something a bit more sophisticated for bass management. You should invest in a BSS Blu 16 or something similar, which will handle the crossovers for bass management and also has 12 band parametric EQs or 32 band graphic EQs for tuning the monitors as well as delays for time aligning the various drivers.

You can easily spend $100k for a very modest but professional mix room just on gear and software, and that's buying used where possible. I know people who have set up mix rooms in their garage who have spent more than that. I spent more than that on my room, which is in a spare bedroom. You could also spend 5 times that much, depending on the choices you make.

...and then there are the "wood and fabric" aspects of the room...AND...HVAC!

phil p

[minister]

My first question is, where are you located and can you just find an existing facility that already does this, built out the room, has good mixers, and can service your needs? I think that would be the best route to go rather than having your company build out a room. If accounting thinks it will save on salary vs. hiring outside, they need to calculate the amortization of the buildout and gear needed. It is not always cost effective to have it in-house.

Too many unknowns to give you an accurate ballpark.

My first question is, how big is the room? If you have Blue Sky's in there, it can't be very big. Blue Sky's are not enough speaker to power a Theater. This is what you said, existing theater. Is this like "home theater" size?

How much isolation is there/will you need? This can be very pricey.

Phil mentioned HVAC. Proper HVAC can be at least $10k, usually more if there is a lot of work to get the blower isolated, the lines run to the compressor on the roof or outside the building, and the over-sized insulated duct work hung.

Do you plan on Dolby approval?

You need a perforated screen, rigging or frame for screen, structure for the speakers behind the screen, hardware to hang surrounds, lots and lots of cable, connectors, who is going to make the cables?, you need a DAW controller or console, console desk, monitor controller, plus the DAW and all the plugins, mixer and client seating, lighting, electrical infrastructure, data cables, cables to the console (ethernet, AES, USB...), rack units for the equipment room, etc, etc, etc....it will take you days just get a thorough list together. And it all adds up quickly.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by philper

...and then there are the "wood and fabric" aspects of the room...AND...HVAC!

phil p

Very dumb question. Wouldn't it be more prudent to hire the mixer first and let him or her be involved in the selection of equipment? He or she is going to be using it so it would kinda make sense to let them be involved in the decisions as to what to buy??? Just a thought.

FWIW

[Henchman]

A single Protools rig won't suffice.
To do the job properly, smoothly, which results in cost effective, I would say 3 rigs. One for Dx, music, one fir fx, BG's and foley, one for stem printing.
And a proper controller. I suggest a 24 fader d-command.

You will need plugins of course for all three rigs, and proper meters.
As mentioned above, what's the size of the room.
If its a room small enough for blue Skye's, then it's too small to be mixing anything other than for TV.

Now, $2 million dollar movies are usually direct to DVD, and TV anyway.
So, it will most likely be fine.

HVAC is a very important factor. As well as a spot for the computers.
Don't forget a good projector , that is not IN the room.
Oh, and good soundproofing for the neighbors, if there are any.
Not being able to mix at a proper level, because the sub is bothering a guy in an office next door, won't work.

Been there...

[philper]

Originally Posted by Henchman

A single Protools rig won't suffice.
To do the job properly, smoothly, which results in cost effective, I would say 3 rigs. One for Dx, music, one fir fx, BG's and foley, one for stem printing.
And a proper controller. I suggest a 24 fader d-command.

You will need plugins of course for all three rigs, and proper meters.
As mentioned above, what's the size of the room.
If its a room small enough for blue Skye's, then it's too small to be mixing anything other than for TV.

Now, $2 million dollar movies are usually direct to DVD, and TV anyway.
So, it will most likely be fine.

HVAC is a very important factor. As well as a spot for the computers.
Don't forget a good projector , that is not IN the room.
Oh, and good soundproofing for the neighbors, if there are any.
Not being able to mix at a proper level, because the sub is bothering a guy in an office next door, won't work.

Been there...

And if you build a rig this big and are charging what you need to have it make sense as a business you need backup gear--computers, projectors etc, anything that the failure of which would be a show-stopper. Your work on a beautiful room will be for nothing if word gets around that you can't keep your technology together through a mix.

Making a room like that be even adequate for mixing a theatrical feature, let alone great, is really hard and really expensive, and requires excellently skilled and very committed people with solid financial backing. Think of it as building a "sound factory"--it's that complex.

phil p

[Henchman]

Let's say, it costs a realistic price of $100-150k to set up a modest mix room.
Now, if you are doing $2 million movies, let's say you are mixing and doing the m+e in 4 days. I know I've done numerous of those type of gigs. So it can be done.
And let's just say, you are renting a room to mix in with engineer for around $5k a day.

It's going to take you about 10 movies to break even on your build out, and paying a mixer to mix said 10 films. This doesn't include the cost to rent the space, and pay for the electricity.

Does this really make sense for your business model?

And remember, the place you would rent is a proper sized stage too. Not a small office like room.

[mxisaac]

Originally Posted by minister

My first question is, how big is the room? If you have Blue Sky's in there, it can't be very big. Blue Sky's are not enough speaker to power a Theater. This is what you said, existing theater. Is this like "home theater" size? How much isolation is there/will you need? This can be very pricey.

The theater is a smaller DI theater, originally used for color correction. We're talking about a small facility theater for maybe 15 people.

Originally Posted by minister

Do you plan on Dolby approval?

Dolby approval is probably a good idea, yeah. Again, these are indie films with distribution deals for a small theatrical release.

Originally Posted by minister

Too many unknowns to give you an accurate ballpark.

How about a loose ball-park figure instead of an accurate number? Don't really want an accurate number anyway. Sounds like too much work.

Originally Posted by minister

My first question is, where are you located and can you just find an existing facility that already does this, built out the room, has good mixers, and can service your needs? I think that would be the best route to go rather than having your company build out a room. If accounting thinks it will save on salary vs. hiring outside, they need to calculate the amortization of the buildout and gear needed. It is not always cost effective to have it in-house.

The main reason I'm not doing that right is that it's labor day weekend and I thought I'd be able to snag some info before this morning. (My boss threw this at me late on Friday)

The facility is in Los Angeles, so yeah, I think there are few little places here and there that MIGHT be able to help do this...

BUT right now it's all about pricing the GENERAL cost of the room so that the owner can decide whether or not it's a viable option. When I say general, I'm talkin' GENERAL bro. Like, what does it cost, 10 bucks, 20 bucks? 10,000? 50,000? 290,000? In editorial I could build a room that costs a range of prices, but I also know that GENERALLY suites have a pretty common, realistic range for commercial, film, high budgets and low budgets.

The owner has a 10 picture deal so the cost of the mix suite would be spread over those films over approx 3 or 4 years. What we're trying to figure out is if it's financially responsible to do this.

Personal opinion: I think it's smarter to go with other people who have their own spaces that they're comfortable working in. Let them deal with their own maintenance and upgrades. God knows I don't want to be involved in that. I'd much rather someone drive their own machine and feel comfortable in their own workspace.

But before I can make my case against building an in-house mix, I need to show him it's not necessarily the best move for the money. And to do that, I need to give him ballpark figures. Before I can start searching for brilliant freelancers with the own gear and killer setups, I need to present the opposing side. And numbers talk.

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Very dumb question. Wouldn't it be more prudent to hire the mixer first and let him or her be involved in the selection of equipment?

No one is building anything at the moment. Just ball-parking a figure for the feasibility of the buildout.

[mxisaac]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Let's say, it costs a realistic price of $100-150k to set up a modest mix room.
Now, if you are doing $2 million movies, let's say you are mixing and doing the m+e in 4 days. I know I've done numerous of those type of gigs. So it can be done.
And let's just say, you are renting a room to mix in with engineer for around $5k a day.

It's going to take you about 10 movies to break even on your build out, and paying a mixer to mix said 10 films. This doesn't include the cost to rent the space, and pay for the electricity.

Does this really make sense for your business model?

And remember, the place you would rent is a proper sized stage too. Not a small office like room.

Yeah, we are actually doing about 10 movies, coincidentally, with a small theatrical release, but yeah, mostly for DVD VOD.

Also, we own the building we are in and are the only people in it. The current theater is sound proofed, BUT that's a good point about the projector. We already have a 2k projector used for coloring (room is CURRENTLY a DI suite/theater) and way way way overkill for a mix room.

[Henchman]

I pm'ed you.

[mxisaac]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Let's say, it costs a realistic price of $100-150k to set up a modest mix room.
Now, if you are doing $2 million movies, let's say you are mixing and doing the m+e in 4 days. I know I've done numerous of those type of gigs. So it can be done.
And let's just say, you are renting a room to mix in with engineer for around $5k a day.

It's going to take you about 10 movies to break even on your build out, and paying a mixer to mix said 10 films. This doesn't include the cost to rent the space, and pay for the electricity.

Does this really make sense for your business model?

And remember, the place you would rent is a proper sized stage too. Not a small office like room.

While the numbers do start to align, I honestly think the QUALITY of the product may end up suffering if we own the mix suite. So even if the numbers start to break even, I worry that the product may suffer...

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by mxisaac

While the numbers do start to align, I honestly think the QUALITY of the product may end up suffering if we own the mix suite. So even if the numbers start to break even, I worry that the product may suffer...

And you are absolutely right, IMO.

[Henchman]

I think some filmmakers think a mix room is just a room with some computers .
But there is so much more behind the scenes that goes on.
There is a need for experienced people in the machine room.
Maintenance guys that understand sound.
Guys doing backups.

IE. Our guys do backups at the end of every day. Not just the end of the full mix.
Transferring and transcoding picture for playback.

All these little things.

[FullFrequency]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I think some filmmakers think a mix room is just a room with some computers .
But there is so much more behind the scenes that goes on.
There is a need for experienced people in the machine room.
Maintenance guys that understand sound.
Guys doing backups.

IE. Our guys do backups at the end of every day. Not just the end of the full mix.
Transferring and transcoding picture for playback.

All these little things.

Totally, and during the day too!

[mxisaac]

So it sounds to me like the average person doing final mixes on feature and television are spending in the $100,000 range on the initial setup of a room.

Note, this room does not need to be client-ready. No comfy couches, bowls of snacks, or flavored ice water.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by mxisaac

So it sounds to me like the average person doing final mixes on feature and television are spending in the $100,000 range on the initial setup of a room.

Note, this room does not need to be client-ready. No comfy couches, bowls of snacks, or flavored ice water.

Probably closer to $150. Unless you buy a lot of used gear.
A 24 channel Icon control will run you about $30k.
3 Protools rigs to playback and record your stems is going to be another at least $30k each in my rough estimated. Once you get all he I/o's etc.

Remember, this is comparing with what you could expect on a proper Dubstage if you rented.

[minister]

Originally Posted by mxisaac

The theater is a smaller DI theater, originally used for color correction. We're talking about a small facility theater for maybe 15 people.


Dolby approval is probably a good idea, yeah. Again, these are indie films with distribution deals for a small theatrical release.


How about a loose ball-park figure instead of an accurate number? Don't really want an accurate number anyway. Sounds like too much work.


The main reason I'm not doing that right is that it's labor day weekend and I thought I'd be able to snag some info before this morning. (My boss threw this at me late on Friday)

Well, it sounds like the room is small, but bigger than a music studio control room or edit room. Dolby will want your room to be over 5300 Cubic Feet. But if it is all DVD/VOD and maybe some DCP, then you don't need Dolby. .... unless you are thinking ATMOS which doesn't make sense in your scenario.

Ok, MAYBE you might get away with something like the $150k ballpark. You will need at least 2 PT rigs. You need a perf screen, you need cables, and you need someone who knows how to set it all up and tune it. You will need maintenance, you need you need you need.... And you need a person who knows what to buy or you will buy stupid. $100k goes REALLY fast in a room like that as does $150k. And that is for a bare bones setup. If you have to get into room isolation, it can be more. EVEN IF you own the building, you don't want this mix room -- that will be playing movies LOUDLY -- to be bothering other work rooms or the noise from the rest of the building and the street coming in.

I think it is far better to not put your money into turning a small room into a Dub Stage but rather go to a good, cost-effective option where you are. As you say, let them worry about maintenance, upgrades, working out the kinks, as well as having the knowledge to know what to do and when to do it.

[rcutz]

Sorry for later jump in, and I will give you a input from brazil, where 90% of the movies did not even cost 2millon dollars, most are made to be present at cinemas and the rig cost in dollars at least 60% more than US.

here with U$100K I can build a nice dub room - without even considering the Dolby approval. If you own at least a room of 7mX4.5mX4M (WLH) after acoustic treatment, you can build a nice dub room. In this room, you will be able to accomodate around 4-5 people, have a screen 3 meters away from the mixer position, a nice sweet spot, decent distance for surrounds, and comfortable space for "guests".

With one HDX and a recent macpro, you will be able to handle even more then 150 tracks including stems and 5.1 recording tracks, and will be able to confortable mix dialogue drive sweet dramas, even action movies if your re-recording engineer is smart and knows how to handle his resources, do pre-dubs, etc... I also like the Hencheman schema, but it is expansive, and some times you don`t need that all.

A C|24 could do a nice job, but an Icon will too, of course. In this room, you won`t be able to have dolby approval, so you will need to rent a Theater to do you finalmix/Print Master. if you hire a nice guy, maybe he will be able to pre-mix all the movie, get very close to the end result, and you will spent a very little time in a bigger theater.

Usually in a mix process here in brazil the overall buget is divided like this: Studio gets 76%, mixer gets 24% of the budget, so it is easy to see that handling the room, maybe for 70% of the project could ending up being economically viable and profitable, and if the 10 movies went well, you should have more, and even ending renting the room or becoming a one-stop-shop.

it sounds that if you have 10X2million dollar projects, if the sound post (editing and mixing) cost 10% of the project, we are talking about 2 million dollar budget. So, maybe it is looks profitable. But I really don`t know how much a decent re-recording engineer cost in LA and even a decent room.

You said that you have a room for 15 people, so u probably has more space then I said.
So you probably could do a better mixer stage. That will cost more.

beside the infra-structural side of the business(acoustic, HAVC,etc), you all ways could upgrade your gear. So you could begin with 1 PT HDX, and if the needs came out you can buy another...etc..

Just the toughs of a very independent inteupreneur/re-recording guy, in a country with annual interest rates around 150%. cheers. ricardo

[georgia]

Don't bother building your own dubstage.... not only do you have to take into account the build, but you have to factor in operation, updates, maintenance, backups, spare parts, training, power costs... and in the end a small room just won't cut if for real feature mixing. I've designed and built a few dub stages and a number of editing facilities around the world... trust me on this one... bad idea building one that, in the end, won't do the job properly.

Spend a fraction of the money on a good 5.1 editing room and do all the pre-dubs there. get the sound all tweaked and ready for mix. Then take it to one of a gazillion dubstages that are properly equipped and setup for cinema mixes.

There are plenty of dubstages up, operating, tuned and staffed... Im sure that you can work a deal for 10 film mixes... heck. I'd be happy to work a deal to mix 10 films for you in NYC on a dubstage.... There are plenty of people qualified and with full on access to some of the best places in the world here. why build a kinda-sorta mix room...



BTW: to answer your question, I've built a professional dub stage for under $500K and i've built one that was a bit over $2M.... (not counting the building construction or re-existing space prep) it all depends on the gear and the facility and the budget... Tell me the budget and I'll design one to fit.... but I still say, don't do it. build a really nice sound editing room and mix on a real dubstage... in the end for ten 2M dollar flicks... it will be way more cost effective to do the sound design in house and mix at a real facility... and the product will be better for it.
cheers
geo

[Henchman]

Rcutz, as a comparison, the network TV dramas we mix, we use 3 PT Rigs. The track counts for the SFX rigs alone make it prohibitive to use one or even two rigs. It can be done with two, but you are limited on your SFX edit.

So yes, you CAN build a stage for $100k. But you will ecgetting nowhere near the quality and efficiency if you spent the same amount spread over 10 films mixing them at an already existing room.

Oh, and I have yet to see any low budget movies appropriate even 5% to the complete sound budget.

Sad, but true.

[rcutz]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Rcutz, as a comparison, the network TV dramas we mix, we use 3 PT Rigs. The track counts for the SFX rigs alone make it prohibitive to use one or even two rigs. It can be done with two, but you are limited on your SFX edit.

So yes, you CAN build a stage for $100k. But you will ecgetting nowhere near the quality and efficiency if you spent the same amount spread over 10 films mixing them at an already existing room.

Oh, and I have yet to see any low budget movies appropriate even 5% to the complete sound budget.

Sad, but true.

Hi Hench, everything is possible. I'm good with a hdx or pthd 5 doing dramas for cinema, with very, very detailed sound. Without wanting to get in to an argument with you and without un-credit personal metodologies, I do believe this kind of huge tracks counts, sometime sounds as some kind of mythologie for me. But let's not argue on that, Ok?

I do agree with the 5%, and I would like to say, come on to Rio. With this money we can cut a very nice deal to edit and mix your movies, on world class studios and maybe we can catch one world cup football match and whom knows even an olympic event!

:-)

Cheers!