3.0 or LRC (LCR) Mixing. Need HELP!!!

[Steven1145]

Well first off let me add to you stress... Why 3.0? It is not a common playback format, and we all know that chance of the screening going FUBAR is inversely proportionnal to how close you adhere to common standards and guidelines.

Second, there is no rule that say that FX have to come out of LR. In fact most of the time sound FX are more believable when they come out as being in the same space as the characters (dialog). A door slam or foley in LR is disturbing, the more so in a big theatre.

Third: if this is stressing you so much, might it not be that you have bitten something you cant chew? The screening is in two weeks and only now you are asking for info on an internet forum? My advice: stick with the score and whatever sound editing you manage to do in 10 days, and go to a seasonned mixer in a proper mixing environment to do a 3 day (rough) mix. Save your sanity and most of all, make your producer happy (with his sh***y two week audio post schedule).

[georgia]

what format is the project playing in in the theatre? is it off DVD, hard disk, blu-ray, 35mm, 16 mm ? what audio system will you be using Dolby Digital encoding, DTS encoding, straight audio outputs to the theatre audio system? what's the frame rate and speed of the project? What's the frame rate and speed of the recorded audio from the production shoot? Does this include dialogue that was recorded on set?
How long is the film?

Give us some info so we can help you.

cheers
geo

[stresstour]

Originally Posted by georgia

what format is the project playing in in the theatre? is it off DVD, hard disk, blu-ray, 35mm, 16 mm ? what audio system will you be using Dolby Digital encoding, DTS encoding, straight audio outputs to the theatre audio system? what's the frame rate and speed of the project? What's the frame rate and speed of the recorded audio from the production shoot? Does this include dialogue that was recorded on set?
How long is the film?

Give us some info so we can help you.

cheers
geo

1. is it off DVD, hard disk, blu-ray - Hard Disk or blue-ray

2. what audio system will you be using Dolby Digital encoding, DTS encoding, straight audio outputs to the theatre audio system? - Great Question, I know nothing of the setups of any of the theatres the producer has lined up. Lets say for argument sake you choose one for me that could be played in majority of the theaters??

3. what's the frame rate and speed of the project? - 1920x1080, 24

4. What's the frame rate and speed of the recorded audio from the production shoot? - Well, right now I have dialogue and music in PT and the project is set to 24/48

5. Does this include dialogue that was recorded on set? - I have been given the final audio which has been turned into a dialogue wav file given to me for me to sync up to video and then clean up. That part is done.

6. How long is the film? - Roughly a 100 minutes.


I sincerely hope this helps!

[stresstour]

Originally Posted by Steven1145

Third: if this is stressing you so much, might it not be that you have bitten something you cant chew? The screening is in two weeks and only now you are asking for info on an internet forum?

From my original post:
"This deadline was put on me at the last moment by the producer."

I am a seasoned audio professional but know very little about surround and the delivery specs. I was told by the producer that I had a much larger window of time to get the job finished. Which in return I would investigate the details on the "how to".

[stresstour]

I just found out the theaters require Dolby Digital Sound

Also, it will be on DVD and Blue-ray

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by stresstour

I just found out the theaters require Dolby Digital Sound

Also, it will be on DVD and Blue-ray

Then you should be mixing in 5.1.
Period.

[Henchman]

Oh, and as a newbie, delivering a 100 minute movie in two weeks by yourself.
Good luck.

[pethenis]

Originally Posted by stresstour

[B]5. Does this include dialogue that was recorded on set? - I have been given the final audio which has been turned into a dialogue wav file given to me for me to sync up to video and then clean up. That part is done.

So the editor has bounced his dialogue tracks down to a wavfile... I like the "that part is done" ;-) Seriously, a big part of post is correcting all the nasty edits you get from the picture-editor. You can't really do that without handles. I sure hope they didn't "help you" by rendering EQ's en FX in the wav file.

"...but it sounded fine in our edit room..."

[stresstour]

Awesome! Thx Henchman for the encouragement and helpful input!

[stresstour]

@pethenis, the dialogue wav file did NOT have any EQ, FX and etc. "that's already done" means I'm done editing it. Thx for your help regarding the original post.

[Henchman]

My suggestion is, try and get some people to help on some of the cutting, and let the producer know, if he wants to meet his deadline, it's simply going to cost more. It's the old golden triangle. Quick, cheap, good. Pick any two.
And yes, receiving the dialog without handles, has tied your hands.
Doesn't premiere output an AAF or OMF these days?.

[pethenis]

Originally Posted by stresstour

@pethenis, the dialogue wav file did NOT have any EQ, FX and etc. "that's already done" means I'm done editing it. Thx for your help regarding the original post.

Ok, you said someone else delivered that file. We have no idea what you know or don't know. Re the 5.1, just calibrate your monitors (see the stickies), import your dialogue wav, music, whatever. Set up a 5.1 master, pan dialogue center, music LR and mix away. Bounce to 5.1 audio in the end. You don't HAVE to use Surrounds and LFE, but if you want to put it on DVD or Bluray as LCR, the encoding software will only accept a 5.1 file. It doesn't care 3 channels of it are mute.

Does that help?

[stresstour]

Originally Posted by Henchman

My suggestion is, try and get some people to help on some of the cutting, and let the producer know, if he wants to meet his deadline, it's simply going to cost more. It's the old golden triangle. Quick, cheap, good. Pick any two.
And yes, receiving the dialog without handles, has tied your hands.
Doesn't premiere output an AAF or OMF these days?.

Thx Henchman but, my only problem right now is how I should export out of PT and deliver the audio files to the video editor for completion.

Is handing him 6 channels of audio for the whole film sufficient or should I rent or buy an encoder plugin for Dolby E and then give him that file?

Obviously this a low budget and is unorganized, but any advice is appreciated.

[stresstour]

Originally Posted by pethenis

Ok, you said someone else delivered that file. We have no idea what you know or don't know. Re the 5.1, just calibrate your monitors (see the stickies), import your dialogue wav, music, whatever. Set up a 5.1 master, pan dialogue center, music LR and mix away. Bounce to 5.1 audio in the end. You don't HAVE to use Surrounds and LFE, but if you want to put it on DVD or Bluray as LCR, the encoding software will only accept a 5.1 file. It doesn't care 3 channels of it are mute.

Does that help?

I apologize for the confusion man. Yes that does help. I thought about the mute channels but didn't know if that would screw things up. Don't have much time to experiment.

If it is going on a hard drive does it still need the encoding software?

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by stresstour

Thx Henchman but, my only problem right now is how I should export out of PT and deliver the audio files to the video editor for completion.

Is handing him 6 channels of audio for the whole film sufficient or should I rent or buy an encoder plugin for Dolby E and then give him that file?

Obviously this a low budget and is unorganized, but any advice is appreciated.

Hand him the 6 files. It's not up to you to have to invest into any plugin to create the Dolby 5.1
That's the video/layback depts job. Do not spend a dime.

[pethenis]

Originally Posted by stresstour

I apologize for the confusion man. Yes that does help. I thought about the mute channels but didn't know if that would screw things up. Don't have much time to experiment.

If it is going on a hard drive does it still need the encoding software?

Well theoretically you could encode your own AC-3 files for DVD, but I wouldn't. Just deliver 6 WAV's properly named and let the person making disks handle it. Dolby E is only used for TV and archiving.

[Henchman]

And next time a producer forces a deadline on you at the last moment, tell him he will have to pay more. And kindly respond with "lack of planning on your part, does not warrant an emergency on mine."
Obviously the producer not only doesn't know what he's doing, but also doesn't have the money to back up his deadline demands.
And these kind of projects with these kind. "producers" rarely ever lead to any decent work in the future
Question is. Is it with the stress to you to out up with it.

[stresstour]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Hand him the 6 files. It's not up to you to have to invest into any plugin to create the Dolby 5.1
That's the video/layback depts job. Do not spend a dime.

Awesome. Will do then!

And yes next time, it will be different. You're right it is NOT worth it.

[nzl62]

Take a deep breath.

Break it down into simple steps.

1.Get the dialogue right centre mostly.
2. Work from the backgrounds forward and allocate yourself a proportion of the time.
3. As you do the BG's, spot the essential effects with markers and include specific notes from production.
4. Tracklay hard effects per your notes, don't get side tracked, just do what you spotted nothing else.
5. If there is any time left at all, do some extra sweetening or special effects.

2 weeks is crazy fast but doable, I have done about ten flicks like this but you must be disciplined and you have to stick to the plan, getting bogged down on a scene is not an option, move on and come back to it but get to the end first.

The number of projects that I have come in to help that have had a couple of nice reels then fallen apart , I can't begin to count.

Re dialogue and no handles? Stop right now and send that shit back. Move onto the backgrounds.

In short....

Block everything out fast, then come back to finesse, you simply wont have enough time to go scene by scene until you are happy.

And, work sensible hours to start with otherwise you'll blow up and won't get it done.

Have fun

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by nzl62

Take a deep breath.

Break it down into simple steps.

1.Get the dialogue right centre mostly.
2. Work from the backgrounds forward and allocate yourself a proportion of the time.
3. As you do the BG's, spot the essential effects with markers and include specific notes from production.
4. Tracklay hard effects per your notes, don't get side tracked, just do what you spotted nothing else.
5. If there is any time left at all, do some extra sweetening or special effects.

2 weeks is crazy fast but doable, I have done about ten flicks like this but you must be disciplined and you have to stick to the plan, getting bogged down on a scene is not an option, move on and come back to it but get to the end first.

The number of projects that I have come in to help that have had a couple of nice reels then fallen apart , I can't begin to count.

Re dialogue and no handles? Stop right now and send that shit back. Move onto the backgrounds.

In short....

Block everything out fast, then come back to finesse, you simply wont have enough time to go scene by scene until you are happy.

And, work sensible hours to start with otherwise you'll blow up and won't get it done.

Have fun

Hmm, yeah, you missed out on the composing part.
2 weeks?
The fastest you can do a decent mix for 100 minutes is 3-4 days. That leaves 10 days straight for everything else.

There would have to be some serious dough involved for me to work that kind of schedule.

[nzl62]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Hmm, yeah, you missed out on the composing part.
2 weeks?
The fastest you can do a decent mix for 100 minutes is 3-4 days. That leaves 10 days straight for everything else.

There would have to be some serious dough involved for me to work that kind of schedule.

Ooops. Ok then you're f..ed

[stresstour]

Lol... Well the score is all but 14 min done. But still it's a tight deadline.

[abes]

When the score is finished, you will have to mix this in with all your dx and fx, and this alone can generally take a week, and you say the score is not yet finished!

How long did you have to do all the audio on the film, from start to finish? Because I just finished heading up all the audio post on a feature film I just completed (I didn't do the score) and from start they expected me to do it in 6-7 weeks, on my own! I just stared blankly at them.

Lucky enough I know the producer well, so I managed to get a small team together and got a month extension. From the sounds of things, the producer really does not have a clue how long audio takes. You need specific deadlines and some compromise.

2 weeks is just mental!

"You can't polish a turd, but you can throw glitter on it"

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Henchman

And next time a producer forces a deadline on you at the last moment, tell him he will have to pay more. And kindly respond with "lack of planning on your part, does not warrant an emergency on mine."
Obviously the producer not only doesn't know what he's doing, but also doesn't have the money to back up his deadline demands.
And these kind of projects with these kind. "producers" rarely ever lead to any decent work in the future
Question is. Is it with the stress to you to out up with it.

I agree. I hate to say this because it might sound snobbish, but whenever anyone approaches me about doing sound for a film, and they tell me they are editing the film in Adobe Premiere, I run (not walk) in the other direction.

I worked on one film that was cut in Premiere and I will never do it again (and this was after Abode added AAF export too!). There is a huge slew of reasons why, technical and non-technical. But the biggest reason is, if the person is cutting it in premiere it is probably because he/she downloaded a cracked version off the web, since nobody in their right mind would actually pay for that program. If someone had the money to pay for an editing program, they would go for final cut or media composer because it is a lot easier to deal with. And if they are using a cracked program (or actually bought Premiere), they most likely are new to working on films and don't understand how much time and money it costs to make a film, but more importantly, they don't understand how to make money FROM the film, which means they can't/won't justify spending any money on making the film since they don't understand how to get a return on their investment.

Honestly, from what the OP described, it would probably be cheaper for the OP to PAY the director back whatever he paid plus a couple hundred bucks extra and walk away! /sarc HAHAHAHAHA Because the amount of money the OP will lose in time and energy trying to make this happen will be way more than whatever he is getting paid and way more than a couple hundred dollars out of his pocket. Doh!

[Leverson]

Real quick response regarding the Adobe Premiere comment. This may have been true a few years ago, but since the release of FCPX a lot of production companies I know have jumped ship from a Final Cut workflow to Premiere, and they are liking it a lot more. The current version is far more robust than older ones, and for a lot of the companies that also do motion graphics work, keeping everything within the Adobe ecosystem works much better with After Effects too. From a post-audio standpoint, I actually enjoy getting OMFs from Premiere more than FCP, I can import them more smoothly (plus FCP has always had that stupid 24fps bug that was annoying).

Getting back to the original thread, it sounds like your producer is screwing you on this project by throwing you into the deep end and then giving you a schedule that is unrealistic even for a team of professionals. However there is a lot of good advice given on the above messages. Read them, temper the producer's expectations down to something realistic, survive this gig, and learn from it so you never have to go through something like this again.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Leverson

Real quick response regarding the Adobe Premiere comment. This may have been true a few years ago, but since the release of FCPX a lot of production companies I know have jumped ship from a Final Cut workflow to Premiere, and they are liking it a lot more. The current version is far more robust than older ones, and for a lot of the companies that also do motion graphics work, keeping everything within the Adobe ecosystem works much better with After Effects too. From a post-audio standpoint, I actually enjoy getting OMFs from Premiere more than FCP, I can import them more smoothly (plus FCP has always had that stupid 24fps bug that was annoying).

Really? Wow. when I had to deal with it it was a nightmare. There was an exceptionally small handles limit, tons of problems with sync and layback. It was having trouble handling 15~20 min reels so the editor had to chop everything into 3 to 8min reels which was super annoying... there were more headaches too, those are just the ones off the top of my head.

Glad to see they have made improvements.

[neilwilkes]

I'd also agree that Premiere Pro has got a heck of a lot better since it went to 64-bit only.
Stick to CS5.5 though at the moment as there are a lot of funny bugs in CS6.

Originally Posted by nzl62

Re dialogue and no handles? Stop right now and send that shit back.

Couldn't agree more - that could be a disaster!

Hope it goes well for you, but I think you've been dropped right in the warm brown smelly stuff.

[stresstour]

Thx guys for your professional opinion and notes of experience. I have definitely learned a lot with this project. There is so many angles to consider that I didn't think about when coming into this movie. Well I better get back to mixing. Sincerely thx again everyone!