dialogue levels for beginners

[pethenis]

The essence of it is calibrating your monitors. Check the stickies where to download the various pink noise etc files that are available. Run those in each speaker and measure with an SPL meter, C weighted slow.

If you have a smallish room you can for instance calibrate to 82 dB for theatrical and start mixing. If dialogue seems too loud, it probably is too loud.

Thing is, you don't know if your work translates to a theater unless you have taken your work to a proper dubstage and hear it there. It took me a couple of features (small budget, I don't get any others ;-) to be sure of what I was doing in my own room. I take my premix to the dubstage and remix for a couple of days. If there's no budget to even do that (?), I'll take the mix as far as I can take it and just rent the dubstage for a playback and take notes.

Now I have several printmasters of the theatricals I did and when I'm about to embark on a new theater-project, I just listen to those for a few hours and get used again to levels, EQ etc. (I do way more TV so I need that).

[apple-q]

If something as essential and basic like a meter or even a plugin for a couple of $ is something that is outside your budget to mix a theatrical film I would honestly rethink your business plan.

Seriously as a beginner the first things you should get are a good treated room, decent monitors and a good meter or meter plugin. References are essential to learn the job. Doesn't make sense to start to learn to fly by removing the instruments from the cockpit.

There is no "work-around" for a meter. Just like there is no "work-around" for decent speakers.

Besides that dx is usually around -20dBfs to -14dBFs average level (sometimes even much louder when people scream and much softer when they whisper) but the essential thing is to calibrate your monitors and mix using your ears because different sources sound different at the same level. But then: without a meter those numbers are not going to help you anyway I guess and without a meter you won't be able to calibrate your speakers.

[abes]

If you are editing and mixing dialogue levels for a theatrical mix, there is no simple beginners (for dummies) explanation.

You really do need to learn all you can before you embark on a big 5.1 mix (if thats what you will be doing?). It's not easy and you will definitely need to invest in some reference plug-ins.

And as apple-q said above, you need to learn about speaker calibration before you even start. And personally, I would never reference my dx mix to a dvd as the circumstances are always different for each film.

Basically, once you have calibrated your system correctly, using pink noise and a sound meter, you should just mix by ear while occasionally referring to a meter.

But I would read those detailed posts first. They will really help you out.

Have fun!

[soundcat]

thanks you guys, very informative, i appreciate it. sounds like i definitely need to get myself an SPL meter, any advice as to which one to get? i found a few, some cheap, others very expensive.

would something cheap like this suffice?
Amazon.com: Pyle PSPL01 Mini Digital Sound Level Meter: Electronics

...or should i be looking for something better/different?

thanks again!

[SoundGuyIC]

The RadioShack SPL meters are pretty common and accurate not to mention affordable. It's also important that you get a metering plugin so that you can monitor the dialogue levels of your mix in the box (if you're
going to be mixing, that is). I like the Waves WLM plugin, and use it almost every day.

[minister]

Dunno about the one you linked to. Many use this:

Amazon.com: Used and New: Radio Shack 7-range Analog Display Sound Level Meter

I have read on the DUC that some like the SPL in the iPhone. Or feel they can get by with it.

[soundcat]

thanks, yeah I've been hearing about the radio shack meter all over, I guess that might be the best way to go.

the wlm plugin looks great but a little pricy, are there cheaper alternatives? using nuendo here. steinberg has a free loudness meter plugin called SLM 128 but i've heard it isn't suited for US projects.

any ideas?

also...i've heard the pink noise available in nuendo and cubase isn't accurate. can anyone confirm this?

[Benson Paris]

Originally Posted by soundcat

thanks, yeah I've been hearing about the radio shack meter all over, I guess that might be the best way to go.

the wlm plugin looks great but a little pricy, are there cheaper alternatives? using nuendo here. steinberg has a free loudness meter plugin called SLM 128 but i've heard it isn't suited for US projects.

any ideas?

TB EBULoudness

[soundcat]

awesome, thanks for the suggestion. 15 euro is a no brainer but it makes me wonder what the difference is between this and the WLM..

do loudness meters really go by country? if so, is this one compliant. how do you know if it is or not?

here's the link to steinbergs loudness meter plugin called SLM 128
http://www.steinberg.net/en/products...ess_meter.html

this won't work here in the states correct?

[GregorioM]

Soundcat:- Loudness meters, either for EBU R128 (in Europe) or ATSC A85 (in the USA) are designed for meeting the specifications required by TV stations for broadcast. Loudness meters are not used when mixing for theatrical release. An SPL meter on the other hand is necessary for calibrating your speakers. Once your speakers are calibrated, you mix theatrical material by ear rather than by the meters.

Your idea of using DVDs for reference purposes will not work because some/many feature films are remixed for the DVD release with levels designed for consumer playback systems rather than theatrical sound systems. So obviously you can't use this as a reference.

G

[soundcat]

thanks for clearing that up G, makes a lot of sense!

so you mentioned loudness meters being used for tv station specifications, would i need a loudness meter to achieve proper dvd/blu-ray playback levels?

also, i am concerned about the calibrating with the pink noise provided in nuendo since i heard it isn't accurate when set to -20. can anyone confirm this? makes me a little nervous going into a mix with improper calibration after learning all this.

[SoundGuyIC]

I'm also relatively new to this, and I find that using a meter like WLM helps with my consistency, and it also gives me a really clear YES you're doing it right or NO something is wrong. That's not to say the meter is the end-all be-all, and certainly there are times when a meter can be more of a burden than a help, but I do like using it as a safety. There's nothing worse than going to a screening of a film you've mixed and realizing your dialogue levels are all over the place because of lack of experience. Just my $0.02. There are many pros on this forum whose advice you should study and learn from. And I'm endlessly grateful for people like Henchman and Ggegan who are always more than willing to share their wisdom to us new guys.

[soundcat]

thanks soundguyic, i can totally see why a loudness meter would be comforting, especially on long projects.

since i'm not sure about the pink noise provided in cubase/nuendo some have recommended using the following files and instructions

Blue Sky

what do you guys think...? should these files suffice for proper calibration?

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

IMHO:
there are 2 basic things:

1. Calibration - which is a process, that CAN BE objectively measured;

2. Dialog level, which I would call "dialog sound" - from my experience I can say, that the only answer would be, like the overall dialog level should land between this and that. But the point is, that you need to "calibrate" also your ears, which is to LEARN how dialogs should sound - this is quite subjective feeling.

At the beginning of my career I also asked the question about "dialog level", but as the time went by, I realized, that there is no exact answer...

I would calibrate the room and watch and ANALYZE good sounding movies - this way you start to understand how dialogs in movie sounds and perhaps you'll be able to mimic that using your source materials...

The best way to learn it is to work with an experienced mixer for a certain period of time..

regards,
Kuba

[soundcat]

thanks kuba, very helpful. you mentioned "watching and analyzing good sounding movies" you mean in general or are you referring to watching/listening to dvds on the same monitors?

G mentioned earlier that dvds are remixed and designed for consumer playback so for theatrical mixes wouldn't this be misleading or are you talking about the overall sound of a well mixed production?

also, any advice on the blue sky calibration files?

cheers

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

Originally Posted by soundcat

thanks kuba, very helpful. you mentioned "watching and analyzing good sounding movies" you mean in general or are you referring to watching/listening to dvds on the same monitors?

DVDs or prefably BlueRays... But remember to calibrate also player's outputs, the same way you would do with your Daw outputs.

Kuba

[soundcat]

cool, thanks. what would be the best way to calibrate when playing dvds from a mac do you think?

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

You need 5.1 discrete analog outputs so you would adjust levels of them separately. You also need to burn a disk with test tones so you would be able to correct levels between all channels.

Kuba

[soundcat]

thanks kuba!

I play DVDs on my mac through the free VLC software to get 5.1 surround coming from my audio interface, seems to work well. I took a -20db sine wave, played it through VLC and my daw adjusted VLC to match my daw at unity, so my question is....

If I'm mixing for a 5.1 DVD, will these well-mixed DVDs playing through my speakers at 79db off VLC calibrated to the sine wave be reliable as reference to what my mix should sound like in terms of levels?

[GregorioM]

Was the DVD you're referencing remixed in a film dubbing room (where -20dbFS = 85dBC) with a dialnorm of -27 or was it remixed in a TV mix room (where -20dBFS = 79dBC) or maybe it was remixed in a UK or European TV room at the old standard (where -18dBFS = 79dBC) or maybe it's been remixed to ATSC A85 broadcast standards or maybe it was remixed in an uncalibrated room or maybe it hasn't been remixed at all and just contains the original film mix?

If you can answer this question for any DVD you want to use then it might provide a decent reference.

G

[soundcat]

that is a very very good question indeed... I guess I'm not totally sure. I'm mainly referring to major commercial releases, movies I've seen in the theaters, mixed by major studios for major u.s. and international release. so, if I'm playing a us region DVD of a major release, is there a common level used to mix these? if not do any of you know of a specific DVD and the specifications of that DVD?

[danijel]

SLM128 was tested against all existing loudness meters, and it is within +/- 0.1dB with all the big ones. It is not as feature rich as some of them, but I don't see why it couldn't be used in the US....? Do you have a link to where you've found this information, so we can check it out?

As for the pink, every brand is different, so you should use the one that Dolby uses, which can be found on 'The Dub Stage' website. I have the feeling that you didn't read all the stickies here and at the DUC, haven't you?

[soundcat]

thanks danijel, good to hear! after i found the plugin, I did some reading, unfortunately can't remember exactly what site i found that on. i'll look around for it

i got confused with the term EBU, european broadcast union too. i figured this would not be compliant with U.S. specifications since its european.

thanks for the pink recommendation and yes, I kind of jumped over the stickies and posted too soon. sorry about that! very informative information there, thanks so much for sharing that info with all of us. im still reading through it all.

cheers