How would you handle this one? TV mix changes...

[NReichman]

Welcome to television. It's a hard one to answer, and it has largely to do with your relationship with the client. Is this a new gig and you need to prove yourself as a flexible and fast team player? Or is this an established client who trusts you and wouldn't be bothered if you request more from the budget?

I'm tired of hearing audio people complain about picture changes or endless mix revisions. It goes with the territory. Good directors will train their subordinates (us) to hear they way they do, and after a few episodes you'll get drastically fewer revision notes if you get in the groove. At least that's been my experience.

[ttown23]

How extensive are the requested changes?

If it's just volume/pan changes or removing a track or two I would be inclined to just do it...

If it's more extensive, then you at least want to let them know about the contract situation before moving forward.

Just my 0.02...

[spiderman]

Originally Posted by NReichman

I'm tired of hearing audio people complain about picture changes or endless mix revisions. It goes with the territory. Good directors will train their subordinates (us) to hear they way they do, and after a few episodes you'll get drastically fewer revision notes if you get in the groove. At least that's been my experience.

I see what your saying.... but I can't totally agree. It's one thing to take mix revisions. What the director hears is most important and if he doesn't like your choices, he gets to request those changes.... Irrelevant for the example we're discussing today.

Do you imply that mixers should stop questioning the right of directors to CHANGE THE EDIT and expect a whole new mix for free? It seems like you advocate mixing projects a second time for free.... because you are a subordinate.

[spiderman]

Originally Posted by ttown23

How extensive are the requested changes?

If it's just volume/pan changes or removing a track or two I would be inclined to just do it...

If it's more extensive, then you at least want to let them know about the contract situation before moving forward.

Just my 0.02...

It's a finished mix going back to a new OMF with whole scene changes and a complete re-edit.

At best, I'll be able to save my mixer settings and import those after reorganizing the new edit.

[minister]

I agree with what what has been said so far.

How involved, really, are the changes? Be honest about it with yourself. Did it take you an extra hour? Or did it take you an extra 5 hours? If it is a good client and good relationship, then I would be inclined to just toss in the extra hour or two. Look at the relationship over a long time. If they have been giving you work for years and it looks like it will continue, you can do it gratis as a thank you for the business. It all depends on context, as I see it.

If you are talking a half-day to a day, then I would talk with the client and have a calm conversation about it. Chances are, they might be reasonable and say, sure, I see where we made the changes so last minute you already mixed the show. You might come to an equitable agreement. If they dig their heels in, then you can say that you will do it this one time, but in the future, it has to change.

I have had changes come down and we found it was the network reviewing it late and after the show was locked. The Prod. Co. made the network pay. No problem.

We can lose a sense of team when things like this happen. We think that they did it without any regard to the repercussions in audio land. Yet, it very well could be that these changes really did need to get made -- the show as a whole is more important than what happens in the mix suite.

Now, there are people who are dis-organized and take advantage of situations or refuse to respect others time. Again, context. In that case, I charge.

[FullFrequency]

I had something very similar happen on a short I was worjking on recently. We charged by the hour, but gave them a friendly (but not too friendly) rate.

[minister]

Originally Posted by spiderman

It's a finished mix going back to a new OMF with whole scene changes and a complete re-edit.

If prepped right, conformalizer can make those changes fast. yes, there is a lot of cleanup, but, in the end, I have had this happen and it was minimal damage.

To add to my last post, as an owner servicing a client, I have to think of it this way: We have a deal to do 26 shows at X amount. Let's say you count on 12 hours of mix. If after episode 12, you get it down to 9 hours, are you going to give that money back? On the other hand, if the budget is tight, and you gave them a deal on your normal hourly rate, then I charge for overages.

[FullFrequency]

To add to my preious post. In my situation we were doing a massive favour on the original costings and as such had stipulated what needed to happen for that rate to stay the same. our client didn't adhere though their own doing in not being organised, so we were left with no choice.

Ministers first post especially talks a lot of sense. I might even print that off and attach it to the mixing desk ha!

[ttown23]

Originally Posted by minister

If prepped right, conformalizer can make those changes fast. yes, there is a lot of cleanup, but, in the end, I have had this happen and it was minimal damage.

To add to my last post, as an owner servicing a client, I have to think of it this way: We have a deal to do 26 shows at X amount. Let's say you count on 12 hours of mix. If after episode 12, you get it down to 9 hours, are you going to give that money back? On the other hand, if the budget is tight, and you gave them a deal on your normal hourly rate, then I charge for overages.

^^^^
Agree completely. Chances are that this will all balance out in the end anyway.

I would honestly look at it in a healthy way, as a challenge to produce a finished product that is as good as you can get it in the client's eyes.

[spiderman]

Agree with most everything... I'm just going to bite it on this one for many of the aforementioned reasons. In fact, I'm already hitting it and it will probably only take a few hours extra. Not a bad deal for a happy client.

Let's Refine the Topic a bit: How many of you include a remix clause in the contract terms? Do you add the terms per/hr or per/episode? Curious to know if there is a "best way" to write this into the deal up front.

Just polling for your experience at this point...

[ttown23]

Originally Posted by spiderman

Agree with most everything... I'm just going to bite it on this one for many of the aforementioned reasons. In fact, I'm already hitting it and it will probably only take a few hours extra. Not a bad deal for a happy client.

Let's Refine the Topic a bit: How many of you include a remix clause in the contract terms? Do you add the terms per/hr or per/episode? Curious to know if there is a "best way" to write this into the deal up front.

Just polling for your experience at this point...

The stuff I do for TV is all handled by my publisher, and I have a blanket contract with them. That contract includes up to 3-4 remixes for every track, if deemed needed. I've gotten so used to doing remixes that its really just become a part of my workflow now.

For what it's worth, I think that you are handling it the right way. And for next time, if it bothers you, get it agreed upon by the client and up front in the contract.

[philper]

The several series I did had changes to every episode, every one, not only from network but from production after changes of heart (and reshoots). Since we knew this, this fact was built into the schedules and budgets and the workflow was adjusted to make the changes work for everyone and the apps they used. Last minute changes are much harder for me to deal with on one-off shows, where there is no established workflow for changes. I try to explain that the picture dept can't just free-lance the methodology--they have to consult with me. The worst aspect of it all is really time, not money; like is there really time to do what is wanted without undo sleep deprivation.

phil p

[spiderman]

Originally Posted by ttown23

The stuff I do for TV is all handled by my publisher, and I have a blanket contract with them. That contract includes up to 3-4 remixes for every track, if deemed needed. I've gotten so used to doing remixes that its really just become a part of my workflow now.

For what it's worth, I think that you are handling it the right way. And for next time, if it bothers you, get it agreed upon by the client and up front in the contract.

Sounds like you're talking about music though? Are you including "3-4 remixes for every track" in post-audio work? I cant imagine needing to remix a TV show or Film that many times or building that into the package cost.

[ttown23]

Originally Posted by spiderman

Sounds like you're talking about music though? Are you including "3-4 remixes for every track" in post-audio work? I cant imagine needing to remix a TV show or Film that many times or building that into the package cost.

Correct - I should have made that more clear; I'm talking about music, not post-work. You're absolutely right; post-audio should require much less in terms of remixes. But I think the general concept is still there - if doing remixes is something that is likely going to be asked of you, negotiate that into the fee structure up front and in the contract.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by spiderman

So you're mixing a TV series. Everything is going well... then, BAAM....
Episode is delivered for mix. Due on Fri, preferred on Thurs. Mixer says up mixing at night, planning to finish early. Next morning, nearing complete mix, phone rings "we had to make some changes."

The contract doesn't specify defaults or remixes. Its simple and just allocates one amount per mix per show. (obvious mistake)

Thinking of additional fee for remix. I'm sure they are thinking I'll do it for free. What would you do? (aside from saying you should have written a default/remix clause in the contract)

This happens. I went to a thing just recently on the ABC/Disney lot with the audio post crew for "Once Upon A Time". It was a great seminar/discussion. While they told us we can't really say anything specific about what was said, I can say that because of all the CGI in the show, they have this same exact scenario happen to them frequently.

For some shows it probably never happens. For others it can potentially happen a lot. Like others have said, you just have to roll with it and plan accordingly.

Is this a non-union gig? For Union gigs you'd automatically be getting overtime. You might want to try working that into the contract when you have a chance to re-negotiate. In TV you are always working up against the airing deadline, so if you have 35hrs of work to do but the TV show airs in 12 hrs, you still have to get it all done by any means necessary. Putting in clauses in the agreement for over-time (you have to establish what a normal work day period will be first) and additional staff as needed might be a good thing to do.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by spiderman

So you're mixing a TV series. Everything is going well... then, BAAM....
Episode is delivered for mix. Due on Fri, preferred on Thurs. Mixer says up mixing at night, planning to finish early. Next morning, nearing complete mix, phone rings "we had to make some changes."
)

What do you mean with, Due on Friday preferred on Thurs?
And it's simple, any extra time for changes, after delivery will be billed as extra hours.
Once you start billing as such, it's surprising how few major edit changes will happen after they deliver for the mix.

[tubeman]

perhaps the client didn't get the note about making fixes/changes before sound delivery.