handling music in the surrounds in film & TV

[Henchman]

Well, to be on the safe side, knowing that the down mix crated bybthe broadcaster can be disastrous, I simply pan hard left/ right, and then pull it to the rear just a smidgen. I'm talking maybe 10%
I don't add any extra reverb, as I don't want to turn it into a washed out mush. I will add reverb, if the scene or cue calls for it.

the last mix I did, I tried out the UPM-1 upmix plug-in, and I liked it a lot. I'm going to probably start using that for all future mixes.

[MixNinja]

Cool thanks for the response. I checked out the UPM plugin and it looks interesting. If I get a chance I'll give it a try.

[imgoinmad]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Well, to be on the safe side, knowing that the down mix crated bybthe broadcaster can be disastrous, I simply pan hard left/ right, and then pull it to the rear just a smidgen. I'm talking maybe 10%
I don't add any extra reverb, as I don't want to turn it into a washed out mush. I will add reverb, if the scene or cue calls for it.

the last mix I did, I tried out the UPM-1 upmix plug-in, and I liked it a lot. I'm going to probably start using that for all future mixes.

Are you using this plugin only to bring stereo music tracks to 5.1? Or are you using it for other elements as well?

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by imgoinmad

Are you using this plugin only to bring stereo music tracks to 5.1? Or are you using it for other elements as well?

Music only

[Steven1145]

I often use the dts upmix plugin for stereo music cues in a 5.1 mix. Works quite well and remains simple to use. I have noticed that sometimes the surround channels distort though, so I always check that everything is ok (distortion is not due to excessive levels, but to cue content vs the dts plugin... weird).
In some films I have put the music nearly ONLY in the surrounds if that was what worked. Of course I'll be careful to monitor the tv downmix and make changes for the tv mix. Put simply: whatever it takes to make the scene work.
For rock music cues I have noticed that too much surround spread takes the bite out of it so I tend to stick to the front if the director wants the rock cue to stay agressive and punchy.

Envoyé depuis mon Transformer TF101 avec Tapatalk

[pethenis]

Originally Posted by Steven1145

For rock music cues I have noticed that too much surround spread takes the bite out of it so I tend to stick to the front if the director wants the rock cue to stay agressive and punchy.

Envoyé depuis mon Transformer TF101 avec Tapatalk

What I do with practically all music that needs upmixing is bypass the Upmix for the LR channels, so I get the spread from the upmix (Waves in my case, haven't tried the others), but the original stereo sound in LR. Works for me...

[imgoinmad]

wow, I didn't expect that UPM-1 to be nearly $1k, it'd have to be pretty damn good and quick to make it worth that.

[recordinghopkins]

If you are truly pre-mixing the music to surround, as opposed to flying in a stereo score and sending a low level to the rear, wouldn't it make more sense to use a wide stereo approach (extending the hard LR panning to phantom side)? This should fold down to LtRt with no problems.

Just a thought.

[SoundGuyIC]

Don't mean to thread hi-jack, but what do you mean by phantom side? Are you referring to a phantom speaker somewhere between the front and the surrounds?

Thanks for the new term!

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by recordinghopkins

If you are truly pre-mixing the music to surround, as opposed to flying in a stereo score and sending a low level to the rear, wouldn't it make more sense to use a wide stereo approach (extending the hard LR panning to phantom side)? This should fold down to LtRt with no problems.

Just a thought.

If you mean by using some kind of widening plugin, then I would have to give that a big thumbs down.
Nothing can screw up an LtRt down mix like plugins that do weird phase stuff to widen the L/R. too unpredictable

[recordinghopkins]

Yuck.

No, I was talking about mixing the surrounds as if they are an extension of the LR field. Not simply putting all L content in the Ls, and all R content in the Rs.

Of course, this assumes that you don't simply have a stereo score handed to you, but are actually mixing the score stems. For instance, let's say you have an orchestral recording as your score that was recorded with a main ORTF pair plus a pair of flanked omnis.

O_______________\ _ /_______________O
Ls, L....................L...R......................R,Rs

The omnis might be sent 80% LR, 20% LsRs, while the coincident ORTF main pair would be 100% LR and no surround. Wouldn't this narrow down nicely to simple stereo with no phase problems?

[recordinghopkins]

Originally Posted by SoundGuyIC

Don't mean to thread hi-jack, but what do you mean by phantom side? Are you referring to a phantom speaker somewhere between the front and the surrounds?

Thanks for the new term!

That's exactly what I mean.

[Henchman]

If I was to receive a set of 5.1 stems, I would place them as delivered by the compose/score mixer. I would not mess with the panning.

[recordinghopkins]

I realize that you were talking about being given a stereo score and forcing it into surround.

My suggestion assumes that you are the music mixer.

I'm not sure what the OP meant about receiving stereo "splits". Sorry if that was off topic. If we're talking about a handful of submixed stereo stems, then my suggestion is still valid. Naturally, if the music is delivered to you as 5.1 stems, there's no debate about how to handle it. If all you have is a stereo music track, and LtRt is important to you, there's really only a couple of ways to handle it, right? Pan it rear a bit like you mentioned, or do it with verb.

I'm learning here too. I'm not a Hollywood guy.

[Henchman]

I used to do the "add a bit of verb to the surrounds"' but I found it eventually just not pleasing and mushy. Now with the up is plugin, I send my separate stems to a5.1 aux track, that has the up mix plugin on it. It works very well. I will only now and then add verb, if it needs it.

[HighGain]

The UPM does a great job if you don't want to mess around a lot, just put it into your aux and you're good to go, but as imgoinmad pointed out, it comes with a heavy price tag.


if you want to try a similar but less expensive plug-in, go check out anymix. i tried it during the musikmesse in frankfurt but at first didn't know what to think of it, but now i don't want to miss it anymore..

[narcoman]

I'm still adding the tiniest reverb to the rears but I have to say, a lot of music is now coming in 5.0. For the right feature I might add a touch to the LFE but not often. Usually only in shock scores... Might ask for a stem of "smack" .

[seanmccoy]

I've had a couple of directors wanting a fair amount of music in the surrounds when only stereo tracks are provided. I've run the send to the rears through an M-S plug to reduce the center info and essentially extend the L/R into a front/back but with less of the featured voices and instruments in the rears. It sounds pretty cool, but I have a feeling that could cause some havoc in a Lt/Rt. But in those cases I was also providing the Lt/Rt, so to be safe I just killed the music in the surrounds altogether before printing.

Anybody else fiddled with M-S for surround stuff?

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by seanmccoy

I've had a couple of directors wanting a fair amount of music in the surrounds when only stereo tracks are provided. I've run the send to the rears through an M-S plug to reduce the center info and essentially extend the L/R into a front/back but with less of the featured voices and instruments in the rears. It sounds pretty cool, but I have a feeling that could cause some havoc in a Lt/Rt. But in those cases I was also providing the Lt/Rt, so to be safe I just killed the music in the surrounds altogether before printing.

Anybody else fiddled with M-S for surround stuff?

I know of a case where that caused a mixer, and finally the post facility to lose a show, because the fold down ended up causing huge problems with the mix on air.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by narcoman

I'm still adding the tiniest reverb to the rears but I have to say, a lot of music is now coming in 5.0. For the right feature I might add a touch to the LFE but not often. Usually only in shock scores... Might ask for a stem of "smack" .

I use lowender on an aux, that I use to always have some LFE,so I don't get the QC complaining this no LFE in the .1 track.

[Smallbudgetguru]

I still use the waves up mixer. I spread things pretty equally in 5.1 and it works well, i carefully listen to 2 ch and mono and pull back when things get muddy. Usually this works pretty well. Ive seen and heard mixers hit this plugin pretty hard for theatrical and dvd releases too without checking the downmix, but I always check it and adjust on a case by case.

I doubt any plug will allow you to blindly spread into 5.1 from stereo without having to check downmix. Some mixers may just be "that good" / experienced?

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I use lowender on an aux, that I use to always have some LFE,so I don't get the QC complaining this no LFE in the .1 track.

Good tip.

[brandoncross]

Originally Posted by Smallbudgetguru

I still use the waves up mixer. I spread things pretty equally in 5.1 and it works well, i carefully listen to 2 ch and mono and pull back when things get muddy. Usually this works pretty well. Ive seen and heard mixers hit this plugin pretty hard for theatrical and dvd releases too without checking the downmix, but I always check it and adjust on a case by case.

I doubt any plug will allow you to blindly spread into 5.1 from stereo without having to check downmix. Some mixers may just be "that good" / experienced?

Tc electronics unwrap is almost identical to the original stereo when folded. Down to stereo. It's just an amazing plug in.

[Smallbudgetguru]

Originally Posted by brandoncross

Tc electronics unwrap is almost identical to the original stereo when folded. Down to stereo. It's just an amazing plug in.

My stage is pt 9 cptk so no TDM here :( its really starting to get to a point where I will have to upgrade to proper hd ! Good to know about tc unwrap. That would save a lot of time with checking phase coherency. I also upmix backgrounds with the waves so you can imagine I spend a couple of passes "fixing" potential problems with downmixes. I dont always have time to check both LtRt, stereo and mono but usually I can see where things go astray

[SDDP]

Originally Posted by seanmccoy

I've had a couple of directors wanting a fair amount of music in the surrounds when only stereo tracks are provided. I've run the send to the rears through an M-S plug to reduce the center info and essentially extend the L/R into a front/back but with less of the featured voices and instruments in the rears. It sounds pretty cool, but I have a feeling that could cause some havoc in a Lt/Rt. But in those cases I was also providing the Lt/Rt, so to be safe I just killed the music in the surrounds altogether before printing.

Anybody else fiddled with M-S for surround stuff?

Originally Posted by Henchman

I know of a case where that caused a mixer, and finally the post facility to lose a show, because the fold down ended up causing huge problems with the mix on air.

Can you give a few alternative examples to avoid any issues when it hits air, when making a LtRt then?

[ErikG]

Listen through a LTRT matrix

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by ErikG

Listen through a LTRT matrix

Bingo