Dialog Editors - Where to Cut Corners?

[Henchman]

It's the same with mixing though.
You HAVE to pick your battles, and do the best you can, in the time allotted.
That's just the way it is.

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by Henchman

It's the same with mixing though.
You HAVE to pick your battles, and do the best you can, in the time allotted.
That's just the way it is.

I think in the hundreds of projects I've mixed, twice we finished early and ran out of things to do. Usually you just run out of time and have to try to forget about the stuff you never got a chance to deal with.

[nzl62]

Often those "Lazy" mixers get three days to do a whole mix in the UK. That is a pass for dialogue and a pss for fx then a day to final. That is about as bad as it gets.
I mix and I cut (dialogue fx and foley) but my first love is mixing.
My approach is to give the mixer options, to lay things out reasonable wide following slate and setup cues. If I can RX something I will and I keep a muted original sitting below it on a track. Some edits need clip gain or volume to make them work. Now that I am on PT10 I use clip gain all the time. If the mixer is running ITB on prottols 10 I may even setup Channel Strip (if they use it) to help.
Doing all the above on a 90 min TV drama takes 7-10 days max

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by nzl62

Often those "Lazy" mixers get three days to do a whole mix in the UK. That is a pass for dialogue and a pss for fx then a day to final.

Pretty much standard OP on the MOW's we do.
We mix the whole thing in 2 days. Day 3 is playback and fixes.

[nzl62]

So surely all the help from the editor(s) would be welcome.
FX need to come reasonably well balanced, pans will need to be tweaked in the mix as always. I do a load of adr fitting right down to rendering an appropriate mono verb (altiverb or similar) mixers can then blow it and replace if they like but in some cases they haven't even clocked it as adr straight away, it just played down.
The approach in the UK and Europe and to a larger or lesser extent in NZ where I have moved back to is to may the dx track "run" as much as possible

[Tom Fleischman]

Originally Posted by Henchman

The only thing I want them to do is pops and ticks and clicks.
I really prefer to do all the other clean up myself. I'd rather editors spend their time finding cleaner alts and that kind of thing. Other than that, I don't want anyone doing any kind of destructive clean up. As how much clean up needs to be done, can really only be determined once you know how much music, fx and BG's are in a scene
...[snip]...

I agree completely. Editing out unwanted noise is one thing, but unless it's an editor who I know, who I have worked with successfully before, and who I trust, I'd prefer that unless there is a good and obvious reason to do so the editors not do volume automation, EQ, or processing (notching, plugins) unless the unprocessed original is right there next to it. Those things are all the job of the mixer because they can't be done in a vacuum. If done in isolation the editor will almost always go too far. They all have to be taken in the context of the other elements in the track.

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman

I agree completely. Editing out unwanted noise is one thing, but unless it's an editor who I know, who I have worked with successfully before, and who I trust, I'd prefer that unless there is a good and obvious reason to do so the editors not do volume automation, EQ, or processing (notching, plugins) unless the unprocessed original is right there next to it. Those things are all the job of the mixer because they can't be done in a vacuum. If done in isolation the editor will almost always go too far. They all have to be taken in the context of the other elements in the track.

It is so much more of a hassle and so much more time consuming to have to unwind other people's work, rather than to just start from scratch. Unless an editor has put in a fair amount of time in a mixer's chair on a dub stage, it is extremely difficult for them to comprehend when they are helping and when they are hurting when they try to take on mixing tasks.

What really upsets me is when I get a sloppy edit and I know that the editor would have had time to do the editorial job correctly if they hadn't tried to do the mixing, too. The end result is often that my job is made twice as stressful and much more difficult because I am spending very expensive mix time trying to undo the work someone else did with misplaced good intentions. Unfortunately, this has been the case more often than not in my experience.

If you are an editor considering taking on mixing tasks, you better know what the hell you are doing, because the consequences can be disastrous if you don't.

[nzl62]

I agree with all the comments from the various mixers posting here and to clarify my views are based on the fact that I am a mixer first, editor second.
In essence the most important concept is to talk to the mixer and set out the tracks as he/she would like. I take my approach as I have a suite with correct metering, excellent monitors, have the experience of 20yrs post and generally have a feel for what mixers like/need but I still ask each and every one what they would like.

[JWalkerPostAudio]

Originally Posted by SoundGuyIC

There's a convert clip gain to volume automation feature, right? I've never been able to find it....but that's probably not the best option anyway when talking about dialogue.

You find it under Edit>Automation.

There are options to convert or coalesce.

-Justin

[JWalkerPostAudio]

To save time in the dx edit I've started using Quickeys and combined shortcuts I've created with my 11 button Logitech mouse. I've pretty much programmed it so I rarely ever have to move my mousing hand to the keyboard. It's a second or two shaved off at a time but those seconds add up!

As for leveling and NR during edit, it depends on the mixer I'm delivering to, but I mostly avoid it. I only level audio on occasion to check if my edits will work for the stage. Whenever I do any sort of NR I leave an original close by so they can easily be switched. If it's a broadband noise I leave it alone and let the mixer have at it. If it's something that I can "edit" out using spectral repair then I'll give it a go. BTW I've found that spectral repair works really well for removing cricket noise, much better than EQ!

I am also in agreement to send questionable audio to the re-recording mixer to be better evaluated, and when I'm the one responsible for data-basing ADR cues I make sure the borderline/questionable lines are included.

-Justin

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by ggegan

It is so much more of a hassle and so much more time consuming to have to unwind other people's work, rather than to just start from scratch. Unless an editor has put in a fair amount of time in a mixer's chair on a dub stage, it is extremely difficult for them to comprehend when they are helping and when they are hurting when they try to take on mixing tasks.

What really upsets me is when I get a sloppy edit and I know that the editor would have had time to do the editorial job correctly if they hadn't tried to do the mixing, too. The end result is often that my job is made twice as stressful and much more difficult because I am spending very expensive mix time trying to undo the work someone else did with misplaced good intentions. Unfortunately, this has been the case more often than not in my experience.

If you are an editor considering taking on mixing tasks, you better know what the hell you are doing, because the consequences can be disastrous if you don't.

Once again Gary, very well said.My feelings exactly.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by JWalkerPostAudio

To save time in the dx edit I've started using Quickeys and combined shortcuts I've created with my 11 button Logitech mouse. I've pretty much programmed it so I rarely ever have to move my mousing hand to the keyboard. It's a second or two shaved off at a time but those seconds add up!

As for leveling and NR during edit, it depends on the mixer I'm delivering to, but I mostly avoid it. I only level audio on occasion to check if my edits will work for the stage. Whenever I do any sort of NR I leave an original close by so they can easily be switched. If it's a broadband noise I leave it alone and let the mixer have at it. If it's something that I can "edit" out using spectral repair then I'll give it a go. BTW I've found that spectral repair works really well for removing cricket noise, much better than EQ!

I am also in agreement to send questionable audio to the re-recording mixer to be better evaluated, and when I'm the one responsible for data-basing ADR cues I make sure the borderline/questionable lines are included.

-Justin

Justin cuts most of my dialog these days. He and I work closely together.
He "get's it". His work is excellent. I am a huge fan.

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman

I agree completely. Editing out unwanted noise is one thing, but unless it's an editor who I know, who I have worked with successfully before, and who I trust, I'd prefer that unless there is a good and obvious reason to do so the editors not do volume automation, EQ, or processing (notching, plugins) unless the unprocessed original is right there next to it. Those things are all the job of the mixer because they can't be done in a vacuum. If done in isolation the editor will almost always go too far. They all have to be taken in the context of the other elements in the track.

Thats a very good point.

[nzl62]

Originally Posted by JWalkerPostAudio

To save time in the dx edit I've started using Quickeys and combined shortcuts I've created with my 11 button Logitech mouse. I've pretty much programmed it so I rarely ever have to move my mousing hand to the keyboard. It's a second or two shaved off at a time but those seconds add up!

As for leveling and NR during edit, it depends on the mixer I'm delivering to, but I mostly avoid it. I only level audio on occasion to check if my edits will work for the stage. Whenever I do any sort of NR I leave an original close by so they can easily be switched. If it's a broadband noise I leave it alone and let the mixer have at it. If it's something that I can "edit" out using spectral repair then I'll give it a go. BTW I've found that spectral repair works really well for removing cricket noise, much better than EQ!

I am also in agreement to send questionable audio to the re-recording mixer to be better evaluated, and when I'm the one responsible for data-basing ADR cues I make sure the borderline/questionable lines are included.

-Justin

Excellent points. Again it all comes down to establishing a workflow that suits the mixer.
I need to get quickkeys going if only to do a zoom,swap to pencil too for click re drawing. That would save a considerable amount of time on its own

[emilano]

Originally Posted by JWalkerPostAudio

To save time in the dx edit I've started using Quickeys and combined shortcuts I've created with my 11 button Logitech mouse. I've pretty much programmed it so I rarely ever have to move my mousing hand to the keyboard. It's a second or two shaved off at a time but those seconds add up!

As for leveling and NR during edit, it depends on the mixer I'm delivering to, but I mostly avoid it. I only level audio on occasion to check if my edits will work for the stage. Whenever I do any sort of NR I leave an original close by so they can easily be switched. If it's a broadband noise I leave it alone and let the mixer have at it. If it's something that I can "edit" out using spectral repair then I'll give it a go. BTW I've found that spectral repair works really well for removing cricket noise, much better than EQ!

I am also in agreement to send questionable audio to the re-recording mixer to be better evaluated, and when I'm the one responsible for data-basing ADR cues I make sure the borderline/questionable lines are included.

-Justin

I also had a huge extensive Quickkeys arsenal for dialog editing. I even had it making c loops for me. I stopped using it when I started using Lion (since quick keys doesn't support Lion yet, nor does it look like it will ever). Are you just not upgrading?

[JWalkerPostAudio]

Originally Posted by nzl62

Excellent points. Again it all comes down to establishing a workflow that suits the mixer.
I need to get quickkeys going if only to do a zoom,swap to pencil too for click re drawing. That would save a considerable amount of time on its own

Yeah that's one of my most used. I've created opt+shft+W to do zoom, consolidate, and switch to pencil.

[JWalkerPostAudio]

Originally Posted by emilano

I also had a huge extensive Quickkeys arsenal for dialog editing. I even had it making c loops for me. I stopped using it when I started using Lion (since quick keys doesn't support Lion yet, nor does it look like it will ever). Are you just not upgrading?

I haven't felt the need to upgrade from Snow Leopard quite yet. I don't know why Startly hasn't caught up to Lion, and unfortunately for them if they don't catch up soon I'm sure many users will move to Keyboard Maestro. I always see the loss of of support of iTunes upgrades as the first sign that an OS upgrade is needed soon.

-Justin

[eoats]

(sorry to go off the OP, but Quickeys works on my Mac; OS10.7.5)