Passing TV network QC without LM100

[spiderman]

Also.... how does the EBU's R128 standard apply when talking about US network QC checks? Any similarity? If so... would something like this be a useful meter to accomplish similar QC reassurance as using the LM100? Steinberg's R128 Loudness Meter

[quadraphonics]

There are now several software applications/plug ins that check for correct loudness. You do however NEED the spec for the network, otherwise you are shooting in the dark.

Look into :
Dolby Media Meter v2
NuGen Loudness Meter
Waves Loudness Meter
TC Electronics LM5


Randall

Originally Posted by spiderman

I've read quite a bit in Geo's Corner and have seen a few QC specs for networks. This show will air on FSN and I can't find a QC spec for this network. Anyone have a link?

Is it possible to use the specs and pass the QC 100% of the time without using an LM100 to check the final? Obviously I don't have one and I'm not sure the budget would allow for me to rent. I'm looking for alternatives like software monitoring or analysis software that will give me the same information. Anything?

For those more experienced mixers.... Do you check every TV show with the LM100 or is it possible to pass QC on a consistent basis without one?

[nucelar]

You will have to find out what are the exact specs you are required to deliver and then we can help deciding. The network should tell you. In any case you will need a hw or sw meter. I would not recommend a new LM-100, there are plenty of cheaper sw solutions depending on the specific needs, including the Dolby Media Meter.

[spiderman]

Cool. Thnx guys!

Anyone know where to look or who to contact for FSN (fox) QC specs?

[spiderman]

BTW... Will any loudness meter give all the needed info? I have Ozone5 and a few other tools for measuring loudness.

For some reason I though the QC measured more than just loudness... DialogNorm, Phase, etc.

[tom_lowe]

Originally Posted by spiderman

BTW... Will any loudness meter give all the needed info? I have Ozone5 and a few other tools for measuring loudness.

For some reason I though the QC measured more than just loudness... DialogNorm, Phase, etc.

If you need DialNorm, get DMM2 or the Waves WLM. If you don't, the Ozone one is fine, or better still get NuGen VisLM. Only get Dolby Media Meter (DMM) if you have to, if you can avoid it, do, it's a CPU hog.

As for EBU R.128, it's based on ITU.1770/1 (in fact there was a revision to the spec with regard to gating which was suggested by the EBU P.LOUD group which has been accepted) but it's a slightly different implementation to what the US specs will probably require, and no DialNorm is used.

TC Electronic sponsored some excellent videos if you want to find out more about it.

[spiderman]

Waves WLM is looking good. (i've not been a big fan of the company for several years though.)

Thnx for the tips!

[colinato]

Originally Posted by spiderman

Cool. Thnx guys!

Anyone know where to look or who to contact for FSN (fox) QC specs?

Is there a post supervisor on your show? They would be the ones to provide that information.

I have the Dolby Media Meter 2 and I absolutely hated it because it completely bogged down my system, however, since the most recent update is has improved dramatically and I rarely have an issue anymore. I haven't tried the alternatives.

[spiderman]

Small budget project... no post-supervisor to lean on.

[colinato]

http://www.fox.com/fbcadvertiserguid...guidelines.pdf

This is fox's commercial tech specs. Not necessarily FSN, but may be the same. If nothing else, you could go by this. Go down to page 17. It looks pretty standard. -24LKFS; -6 peaks.

There must be someone involved in your project with a contact at FSN if that's where it's airing. They should be able to get a hold of some specs for you.

[berniebeaudry]

Originally Posted by colinato

http://www.fox.com/fbcadvertiserguid...guidelines.pdf

This is fox's commercial tech specs. Not necessarily FSN, but may be the same. If nothing else, you could go by this. Go down to page 17. It looks pretty standard. -24LKFS; -6 peaks.

There must be someone involved in your project with a contact at FSN if that's where it's airing. They should be able to get a hold of some specs for you.

I think if you follow the commercial tech specs you'll be fine. I'm not a post person but I work with FSN in our region (Fox Sports North) and my experience has been that if you're in the ball park you're fine. All of the FSN regional affiliates broadcast thru a central hub down in Texas. Check with them to see what they're looking for and I'm betting its the same as Big Fox.
Best,
Bernie

[philper]

Originally Posted by berniebeaudry

I think if you follow the commercial tech specs you'll be fine. I'm not a post person but I work with FSN in our region (Fox Sports North) and my experience has been that if you're in the ball park you're fine. All of the FSN regional affiliates broadcast thru a central hub down in Texas. Check with them to see what they're looking for and I'm betting its the same as Big Fox.
Best,
Bernie

Ballpark isn't so fine w/ post audio specs. The acceptable window for dialnorm or whatever long-term average etc spec you are using is usually only about + or - 1 db off the target level. With peak levels you cannot go over ever, and they generally do not like it if you aren't getting them peaks in the range they specify. That's why innocent soundies spend lots of money on metering apps and gear that make no diff to the sound--they don't want to be dinged by Tech Eval!. All the "app" meters are good (as was said, the Dolby ones are CPU hogs), I like to have the meter on while I'm sound editing so I can be getting onto the zone as I go. I tried doing network stuff without metering: maybe your skills are sharper than mine but I could not get the mixes to pass consistently. With metering, esp if you have it on your mix from the start, you can work with confidence and avoid those unpleasant emails from QC, with the inevitable follow-up panic calls from producers (whose payment checks are now being held up).

phil p

[berniebeaudry]

Originally Posted by philper

Ballpark isn't so fine w/ post audio specs. The acceptable window for dialnorm or whatever long-term average etc spec you are using is usually only about + or - 1 db off the target level. With peak levels you cannot go over ever, and they generally do not like it if you aren't getting them peaks in the range they specify. That's why innocent soundies spend lots of money on metering apps and gear that make no diff to the sound--they don't want to be dinged by Tech Eval!. All the "app" meters are good (as was said, the Dolby ones are CPU hogs), I like to have the meter on while I'm sound editing so I can be getting onto the zone as I go. I tried doing network stuff without metering: maybe your skills are sharper than mine but I could not get the mixes to pass consistently. With metering, esp if you have it on your mix from the start, you can work with confidence and avoid those unpleasant emails from QC, with the inevitable follow-up panic calls from producers (whose payment checks are now being held up).

phil p

You're absolutely right Phil. I didn't mean to imply that standards shouldn't be adhered to. My experience with them was live mixing.

[Jesse Peterson]

if no one is telling you what they need, they probably automatically scale material at ingest. Limit at -10 and try to hit -24LU on steinbergs new free meter. I've measured dialog heavy material with it next to wlm and differences are marginal

[Henchman]

I used the built in PT measuring tool surround some I think it's called, at one. Point. And knew that if I kept it within a certain range, I was pretty good on mark.
It's been awhile though, some can't recall what to hit.

Sorry.

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by spiderman

BTW... Will any loudness meter give all the needed info? I have Ozone5 and a few other tools for measuring loudness.

For some reason I though the QC measured more than just loudness... DialogNorm, Phase, etc.

it was posted above.

dolby media meter is the one u need.
and they only care about:

fox will need lkfs -24
true peak -6

there is no "Qc" per say. they ingest and watch it. they have a lfks meter (forgot the brand) which will say : lkfs target



this very important on the fox specs:

Audio should be mixed, such that the measured average loudness, of any downmix created from the original 5.1, shall be equivalent to the measured average loudness of that original 5.1 mix, within ±1dB.


fold down can be tricky since fox neo for example, won't lower surrounds and will not use the lfe .

[Henchman]

Actually, the is a QC. I know for a fact Fox has kicked shows back that did not meet the spec.

[spiderman]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

Audio should be mixed, such that the measured average loudness, of any downmix created from the original 5.1, shall be equivalent to the measured average loudness of that original 5.1 mix, within ±1dB.


fold down can be tricky since fox neo for example, won't lower surrounds and will not use the lfe .

True... but Fox also accepts LoRo mixdowns and that is what the show requested (stereo).

Actually, the is a QC. I know for a fact Fox has kicked shows back that did not meet the spec.

Yep... the audio was handled by video editors last season and they failed QC several times before getting a pass. That's why I'm got the gig.

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Actually, the is a QC. I know for a fact Fox has kicked shows back that did not meet the spec.

well. if they reject for not having the right lkfs level, even though its a machine saying so .. its some sort of QC.

my point is that its more of a watchthrough QC to make sure things are ok. very lax compared to other fox depts.

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by spiderman

True... but Fox also accepts LoRo mixdowns and that is what the show requested (stereo).


Yep... the audio was handled by video editors last season and they failed QC several times before getting a pass. That's why I'm got the gig.

if you deliver 5.1 then they will do a fold down.

if u delivered stereo then your good. just wanted to point it out since it got us by surprise ... as well as the futurama folks when they started syndication with new 5.1 mixes of their old seasons

mesuring the fold down stereo for LKFS and having a +/-1 tolerance with a wierd fold down setting is imo a very wierd and not well thought out precedure which will encounter more and more probelms.

you will have to mix in 5.1 checking for lkfs. then fold it down and then change your 5.1 mix to comply with the fold down requirements.

not the most convenient solution. still manageable and if time is critical, they will just air stereo using the stereo supply that will comply with lkfs. "shove it on the air" term i got familiar with

as for video editors handing audio, well of course if going to get rejected. it doesnt take QC to figure that one out.

anyways. i meant lax wathrough qc for certain specs they require for broadcast. like S&P, levels , drops and those more align to bad transfers and missed bad words like recently happened which costs networks so much.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Jesse Peterson

if no one is telling you what they need, they probably automatically scale material at ingest. Limit at -10 and try to hit -24LU on steinbergs new free meter. I've measured dialog heavy material with it next to wlm and differences are marginal

Yes, it's been tested against all the current meters, and it's spot-on.