The secrets of tight LFE?

[JSt0rm]

you said it yourself. Things get muddy because they are uncontrolled. Think about why a kick drum has impact and you will get good lfe.

[subbasshead]

try the demo of LowEnder Brent - it is a different approach than LoAir
LowEnder is more akin to a plugin version of the analog outboard dbx Subharmonic synth 120XP..
it is very good, but how/when to use is of course rather important....
http://www.refusesoftware.com/lowender.html


ps i'm not sure 'punch' is a term i'd use with LFE - i associate 'punch' with the attack of a sound, and by necessity of low frequencies with long/slow wavelengths, below 150Hz is not adding punch, its adding 'ooompf' (technical term) or to varying degrees resonance/sustain.. punch comes from frequencies that are likely not in the LFE channel imho....

[ErikG]

To get a "tight" LFE you could employ expanders and filtering and the result would be?
Yes the result is narrow band or sound at a single frequency.

The easy way to get there is to add simple sine waves at select frequencies.

A short 30 Hz will give a lot snappier LFE effect than filtered explosions.

Also avoiding general use of the LFE channel will also result in it giving more perceived punch. Less is often more when it comes to LFE.

[ggegan]

I use Rectify as a sub harmonic generator and then EQ3 4 band to lo pass at 80hz and hi pass at 30Hz at 24dB/8va. The reason I hi pass at 30Hz is because anything below that frequency is very unpredictable and will reproduce too unreliably in different venues.

The other thing that makes lfe punchy is the material you feed it. Something with lots of low frequency random noise content with a very steep rise and fall works well, especially if there is a fair amount of harmonic distortion built into it. I like to keep the duration very short.

The subs are often a weak link in the B chain and the acoustic response of rooms in the extreme low end can be radically different not only from venue to venue, but also in different areas within the venue. The subs may be overwhealming in towards the back and non-existant in the front. Even if the venue has an accurate sweet spot, a small minority of the audience is sitting there, so most will not hear the sub as you intended it to be heard. If the lfe material is sustained, you run the risk that it will mask dialog and music for some of the audience. By keeping it short it will deliver a punch but be gone before it can do any damage. If it is short, you can also play it louder, so it will be more likely to be heard and felt in the parts of the venue where bass response is deficient.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Brent_in_Sydney

Hi all,
I've been playing around with a couple of plugins to give more punch to my LFE tracks. Whether its for 5.1 music (kicks) or post (explosions, stings).
I've tried things like LoAir with some success but on closer listening recently I was better off without it! It seemed to muddy up the LFE rather than making it punchy - too much general frequency rather than definition.

Is Lowender that drastically different? Is it tighter than LoAir? Anyone compared?

So I've turned to gates, expanders and hard filtering, leaving only the select frequency that I really want to re-inforce from my 5.0s. Channelstrip is nice for this with filters and an expander in there, and the ability to sidechain if I need to. That leaves the dynamics intact, I can be selective about the frequency to keep it tight and the expander/gate makes it that much more defined as well.

Compressors/limiters bring up the noise floor, again losing definition,

Anyone else had good success with LFE punchiness? Any tips to share? Plugins of note that help your boom track?

If you want your LFE more punchy you need to add more top end to the sound and send it to the mains.

It's one thing I've discovered from doing a lot of trailers and music for trailers. "punchy" doesn't come from the bottom end, it comes from the top end. As you are starting to find out, bottom end makes things muddy. From explosions to gunshots to taikos, what makes something sound "punchy" is a scooped midrange with ample amounts of top end and adequate (but not ample) amounts of bottom end. Also the shorter the sound the more punchy it is. Trying to compress the bottom end or use some sort of "bass accentuator" like Lo Air to make it more punchy will usually make the bottom end sustain more, thus making it more "ringy" and "muddy" than punchy.

What might help you see what I'm talking about. Take some pink noise, filter it with a LP filter set at 120Hz, set it's level fairly loud and then gate it. Trigger the gate from something that is percussive, whether it be claps, foot steps, gun shots, door slams, etc. Mess with the gate settings and see how it effects the "punchiness" of the sound. You'll probably start to notice that a medium to medium-short attack with a short release works best to make it sound fat and punchy. Long releases just make things get muddy and ringing. And if the attack of the gate is too short you lose some impact because the bottom end is covering up the attack of the sound.

In the end, if something doesn't sound punchy enough it might be because the ADSR of the sound isn't "correct" for punchiness or you might need to scoop out some midrange so that you focus the sound on the top end and bottom end, but without making the bottom end ringy.

YMMV. This is just what I've found in my experiences of having to constantly make things more and more punchy as well as "bigger" and "more explosive", etc...

[Brent_in_Sydney]

Many thanks for the great replies. Apologies if use of the adjective "punch" was mis-leading, I'm happy with the sound/mix when everything is playing but on solo'ing the LFE it just sounded like wobbly low end mush and that's when I took steps with gates/expanders and filters to tighten it up to support the Land R more effectively.
I'll give lowender and rectifi a bash and see if they help my workflow.
Thanks again for the tips, as always!

[jimdrake]

5.1 music mix should not have anything in the LFE.

Unless it's a concert with pyro/fireworks or the 1812 overture or something.

What does the "E" stand for?

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by jimdrake

5.1 music mix should not have anything in the LFE.

Unless it's a concert with pyro/fireworks or the 1812 overture or something.

What does the "E" stand for?

Hi,

This is audio for picture discussion.

Low Frequency Effect = LFE

[ggegan]

My basic attitude about the sub is less is more. It works best as an occasional audio exclamation mark. If you use it too much, it loses it's impact. I especially dislike it when used on music.

[jimdrake]

Originally Posted by JSt0rm

Hi,

This is audio for picture discussion.

Low Frequency Effect = LFE

Hi,

This is an audio for picture discussion.

Kick drum is not an EFFECT.

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by jimdrake

Hi,

This is an audio for picture discussion.

Kick drum is not an EFFECT.

I thought you were asking what the e in lfe meant.

[jimdrake]

Originally Posted by JSt0rm

I thought you were asking what the e in lfe meant.

Yeah, because if you realise what it is called then you may learn a bit about 5.1 systems and then maybe realise that music (mosty) doesn't belong there.

Of course people put kick and bass in the LFE. People also get the LFE and left surround channels swapped, ON A COMMERCIAL RELEASE. People also ask why "my mix sounds very left heavy" and then send a snippet back of the master so I can listen to it and write back to politely suggest that they may have got the front right and surround right the wrong way round.

People also like coldplay and voted for the n@zis!

I am talking from the perspective of concert recordings that go to DVD or "blue ray" now or 3D as well!! (will they send me some snazzy glasses in an email as well as a mov file?! )

I would agree that for film it can be different. But I would say that surely an LFE should be "rumbly" because that's the point isn't it? If it's "tight" then it's actually wrong?

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by jimdrake

Yeah, because if you realise what it is called then you may learn a bit about 5.1 systems and then maybe realise that music (mosty) doesn't belong there.

Ill be sure to let everyone know that

Of course people put kick and bass in the LFE. People also get the LFE and left surround channels swapped, ON A COMMERCIAL RELEASE. People also ask why "my mix sounds very left heavy" and then send a snippet back of the master so I can listen to it and write back to politely suggest that they may have got the front right and surround right the wrong way round.

People also like coldplay and voted for the n@zis!

I am talking from the perspective of concert recordings that go to DVD or "blue ray" now or 3D as well!! (will they send me some snazzy glasses in an email as well as a mov file?! )

Im not saying you dont know what you are talking about but I dont know what you are talking about.

I would agree that for film it can be different. But I would say that surely an LFE should be "rumbly" because that's the point isn't it? If it's "tight" then it's actually wrong?

Cant it be "rumbly" and tight? I mean we are talking about 80hz and below here. It will rumble. Thats the point.

[Brent_in_Sydney]