Deadlines and Timelines

[seizethecarpe]

Hey everyone

I just started an internship at an APP studio about a month ago. One of the things i didn't realize before i got into this is that you can only work on something according to what you're getting paid. The place I am interning at does mostly shows and films that don't have high budgets. So for example, a sound designer at this facility only has two days to completely sound design for a full hour show (minus commercials) and rushes like crazy to get it finished (even though there is a lot more they can do to the show to make it better if they had 3 or 4 days). Is this normal for the audio post world? I got into this field wanting to do my best work on the projects i take on, but so far all i have experienced is that you have to put as much as you can in the little time window that you're given. Any thoughts?

[RecRoom]

Originally Posted by seizethecarpe

i didn't realize before i got into this is that you can only work on something according to what you're getting paid.

Huh?

This is the way of the world. Just like in any other industry the budget dictates the amount of work that can be done on a given project. Learn to work fast, 2 days is fairly standard for your average hour long TV project.

[InternJesse]

In short the answer is yes. With compressed schedules and small budgets combined with how little, even now it seems, directors/producers realize what goes into audio post combined with insane/unrealistic expectations driven by working in digital you better learn to be quick.

[JSt0rm]

Must be fast. Experience will make you quicker.

I always take the total running time and divide it by how many days I have to work on it and that's what I force upon myself for the day.

[Tom Fleischman]

Welcome to the real world. It's a learning experience. Do the best work you can with the time and resources you have, manage your expectations, and enjoy the journey.

As you gain experience, and if you're good at at it, you'll get onto higher budget projects and it gets better.

[stinkyfingers]

[ggegan]

That is the nature of television work, and to a somewhat lesser degree, most low and medium budget features, as well. There is a saying in the biz that a film is never completed, it just runs out of money.

You are at the very end of a long line of people eating up the budget. The money has already been spent and you get the leftover scraps, so you have to figure out how to get the most quality on screen with whatever resources you are given to work with. As Tom said, all you can do is give your best effort and then try to ignore those nagging little details that you had to let go. If you did your job right, no one will notice but you.

[gsilbers]

for low budget TV show....

we worked it out like this:

one guy doing each thing;

dialog editing = 8hr per episode

backgrounds and small sfx= 8hr per episode

sound design/hard sfx= 8hr per ep

foley= 8 hr per ep

(no adr)

mixing (2 mixers in different stages)= 8hr per episode (sometimes more since there was no ADR)

plus do layback.

this x 680 episodes for 6 different tv shows.

of course sometimes some episodes would be faster and some would be longer than 8hrs.

pretty much an episode a day (and a half) for a 40min show.

pretty nuts/ but good money since it was a big network behind the small studio.

[SDDP]

In addition to experience and knowing your way around PT super fast, you'll learn there are formulas and technique that you simply apply over time.

For example on a TV series, usually the same mic, sfx, eq's to actors, templates, etc. The first few take a while to learn the curve of what to add and what the client wants in the mix. Then after a while you know to have a template that has all the channels, busses, eq's, plug-ins, levels, sfx to use and it really becomes smoother a bit of a cookie cutter syndrome.

When you do it over and over, you just learn efficient techniques to apply.
Being super fast on PT and knowing almost every quick key makes a huge difference. Knowing your sfx library like the back of you hand also helps.

[seizethecarpe]

Thanks for the responses everyone! I appreciate all of your insight

I was coming into this thinking that I would be able to make the absolute best final product out of anything I was given, but i realize now it ultimately comes down to budget, how much time you're given and how fast you work.. and then try to improve from there. I've been on pro tools every day now for a month and working on it casually for two years.. but definitely feel myself way more confident with going fast in the past couple of weeks.

[Uncle Bob]

I can give you the perspective from the low/no/mini/micro budget end of things.

Per linear minute of "film" the budget is usually between 30 and 120 minutes. In other words for a 10 minute short the range is five to 20 hours for everything - load it onto the drives and convert the OMF, production sound/dialog cleanup/editing, Foley, sound FX, music layback/editing and mix.

I generally do what I call a "fix 'n' mix"; fix the production sound (which is usually really, really bad) as best I can (most of the time is spent here), put in the essential sound FX and Foley, cut music and mix. It's fast, it's frantic, and you'd better know PT and your sound FX library inside and out - all with an inexperienced first time newb saying "can't you do this, can't you do that" (while you're trying to hear where the loud pop is coming from in the dialog track) thinking you can make their project sound like a $100 million Hollywood blockbuster in an afternoon; "But I used an NTG-1 on a boom-pole! They said it was a great mic!!!

[ggegan]

I just want to chime in about attitude. Even if you are forced to let some things go on many projects, don't ever let yourself do so without an internal fight. Don't ever give up the desire to achieve perfection. It's better to go to bed after a tough day feeling frustrated and haunted by the imperfections you had to let stand than to stop caring, because you'll never graduate to the projects that allow you to really shine unless you are driven to be an artist.

[charles maynes]

^^^^ outstanding comment^^^^^^

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I just want to chime in about attitude. Even if you are forced to let some things go on many projects, don't ever let yourself do so without an internal fight. Don't ever give up the desire to achieve perfection. It's better to go to bed after a tough day feeling frustrated and haunted by the imperfections you had to let stand than to stop caring, because you'll never graduate to the projects that allow you to really shine unless you are driven to be an artist.

Really really amazing Gary.

I've done this and sometimes I go in and the first thing I do the next day is "fix" whatever that thing was. If I'm thinking about it at midnight then it must be fixed the next day.

[soundboy]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I just want to chime in about attitude. Even if you are forced to let some things go on many projects, don't ever let yourself do so without an internal fight. Don't ever give up the desire to achieve perfection. It's better to go to bed after a tough day feeling frustrated and haunted by the imperfections you had to let stand than to stop caring, because you'll never graduate to the projects that allow you to really shine unless you are driven to be an artist.

I thought it bears repeating. I will add, that at a certain point of experience and expertise, what you are kicking yourself for at the end of the day will probably go unnoticed by those who watch it. I have gone to premiers of projects I have worked on, and cringed in my seat, only to be congratulated on how great it sounded afterwards. Hopefully, you are your own worst critic.

[georgia]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I just want to chime in about attitude. Even if you are forced to let some things go on many projects, don't ever let yourself do so without an internal fight. Don't ever give up the desire to achieve perfection. It's better to go to bed after a tough day feeling frustrated and haunted by the imperfections you had to let stand than to stop caring, because you'll never graduate to the projects that allow you to really shine unless you are driven to be an artist.

100 points for this one!


We just did a micro budget gig where I edited picture, did titles, color. Peter did dialogue cleanup ( massive amounts due to crap production audio), sound design. Then we both mixed it and delivered in HD, m4v and DVD. All this for around $8K....

The client is extremely pleased with our delivery last week.

...then...and I noticed 2 iffy picture issues and some mix issues...

so we're just doing the fixes and a new output without being asked, because we want it good, not just acceptable.

Of course my business manager Stacey is bitching like hell at all the FREE time we've being giving the project.


In this business sometimes you get the time you need, but most times you do what you can.



One very import bit of insight I might offer.... ...

no matter how bad the material, no matter how low the budget, no matter how absurd the requests.... in a years time, if you didn't deliver a quality job...
the client will forget that they only gave you 3 days to do 90 minutes of dialogue, sound design, music editorial and mix...
the client will forget they paid you for a 30 second spot and you delivered a feature film
the client will forget that you killed yourself to get as much done as you humanly could within the boundaries of the gig
the client will forget all the pain and suffering ...

... all they will remember...

...is you delivered a crappy mix and a bunch of excuses.

If you take a job, do it right. Otherwise, don't do it.

cheers
geo

[Murasamee]

Originally Posted by georgia

100 points for this one!

no matter how bad the material, no matter how low the budget, no matter how absurd the requests.... in a years time, if you didn't deliver a quality job...
the client will forget that they only gave you 3 days to do 90 minutes of dialogue, sound design, music editorial and mix...
the client will forget they paid you for a 30 second spot and you delivered a feature film
the client will forget that you killed yourself to get as much done as you humanly could within the boundaries of the gig
the client will forget all the pain and suffering ...

... all they will remember...

...is you delivered a crappy mix and a bunch of excuses.

If you take a job, do it right. Otherwise, don't do it.

cheers
geo

I couldn't have said it better myself Georgia! My entire career has been based on relationships created by going above and beyond on some seriously terrible/difficult projects. I always delivered, and people took notice, and when it came down to doing the big budget projects, who got called first? Yup.

Love what you do, and STRIVE to be an artist.

[insomaniac]

Originally Posted by georgia

If you take a job, do it right. Otherwise, don't do it.

I can't even begin to stress this enough.

[Smallbudgetguru]

Uhgh , what a thread! Great stuff here everyone. We are 3 people doing a slasher feature in 3 weeks for edit & mix on micro budget. We can do it but are sacrificing sleep and weekends to as you said "Do. It. Right.!" We deliver printmaster and stems a day before I fly to NY for the CAS meet, then to Toronto for screening. AHhhh back to work!

[ggegan]

I have to caution against doing work for free. Yes, we should all do the best job we can and fight for every bit of quality we can squeeze out of the budget, and it's also inevitable that we do a little extra that we don't get compensated for now and again, but I don't believe in gifting my time to productions. For one thing, they very quickly will lower their budgets accordingly, and for another, it is bad business. On those occasions when I do come in a little early or stay a little late to fix something off the clock, I don't mention it to the client, and I try to avoid the practice unless there is a really compelling reason, such as the fix was necessary because of an oversight or mistake on my part.

[bru95bg]

Some great wisdom above. I'd like to add.

Its important that you manage expectations -what can be realistically achieved in 2 days. (no one expects you to deliver the sound track to Titanic in an afternoon) -always exceed the expectations set. Be honest with the producers (or your sound supervisor), if the task is bigger than the resources they have, explain why and suggest compromise/alternatives that will help them.

Usually while its your sound track (or part of a sound track) its someone else's film. You are in partnership with the producers -and they've had to make all sorts of decisions about what resources can be thrown at the project. At the end of the day the producers decided if the project is worth extra $$$$ investment. They need your help to make these decisions.

Keep your eye open for the opportunity to add fantastic-ness to all your projects.

Bruno

[Tom Fleischman]

I came across a wonderful quote yesterday which I think is pertinent to this discussion:

From Ira Glass . . .
“What nobody tells people who are beginners — and I really wish someone had told this to me . . . is that all of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, and it’s just not that good. It’s trying to be good, it has potential, but it’s not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase. They quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn’t have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know it’s normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It’s gonna take awhile. It’s normal to take awhile. You’ve just gotta fight your way through.”