+24DB Film Mixing

[Ienjoyaudio]

Has anyone here ever mixed a film with 0VU = -24 DBFS = 85DB to allow some extra headroom and loudness? I was reading that some action/war films are mixed this way to add even more dynamic range to the gun shots and explosions. Maybe some IMAX films are mixed this way too. Im not sure.

I have never ran out of headroom with -20DBFS.

[pan]

EBU TECHNICAL - Loudness

You mean the "new" loudness recommendation?

http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r128.pdf

[Ienjoyaudio]

No. Im talking about theatrical mixing where instead of 0VU equaling -20 on the full scale meters you have OVU= -24 DBFS.

Not average loudness LKFS meters or broadcast sound.

[Branko]

In order to make it work, this standard should be applied at both ends of the chain - both at studio and theatre. Otherwise, your mix will sound too soft compared to others.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio

Has anyone here ever mixed a film with 0VU = -24 DBFS = 85DB to allow some extra headroom and loudness? I was reading that some action/war films are mixed this way to add even more dynamic range to the gun shots and explosions. Maybe some IMAX films are mixed this way too. Im not sure.

I have never ran out of headroom with -20DBFS.

Loudness and peak-level have almost nothing in common.

In practice lots of re-recording mixers mix films setting the dolby-box to 6 or 6.5 instead of 7 but what you describe is to set the dolby-box to 8.

In reality films are played back at 4 or 5 so why lower the reference-level?

The trend in cinema is the exact other direction: Turn down the monitoring volume to mix louder and have less dynamics.

apart from that : are there any units out there that can handle +28dBu of line level? Most equipment can barely handle +24dBu that you need to handle the -20dBFS@+4dBu headroom.

[Branko]

Originally Posted by apple-q

In practice lots of re-recording mixers mix films setting the dolby-box to 6 or 6.5 instead of 7

I've always mixed at 7. Mixing at lower reference will result in louder dialog and less headroom for loud FX.

[Ienjoyaudio]

Originally Posted by apple-q

Loudness and peak-level have almost nothing in common.

In practice lots of re-recording mixers mix films setting the dolby-box to 6 or 6.5 instead of 7 but what you describe is to set the dolby-box to 8.

In reality films are played back at 4 or 5 so why lower the reference-level?

The trend in cinema is the exact other direction: Turn down the monitoring volume to mix louder and have less dynamics.

apart from that : are there any units out there that can handle +28dBu of line level? Most equipment can barely handle +24dBu that you need to handle the -20dBFS@+4dBu headroom.

Yes I see what you're saying. I would like to think that if a theater received a film with the 1k test tone 4db lower than usual that they would turn up the speakers by 4DB to match the test tone. But in the real world I dont know if that would happen.

If a film was mixed this way, theaters woud have to raise the volume on their speakers to have it play back properly. This is already sounding like more of a hassel than its worth.

Also when you say Dolby Box are you talking about the Dolby Cinema Server?

[georgia]

in reality.. it works completely differently... The single projectionist who is running 6 or so theaters in a multiplex has already calibrated, and I use calibrated loosely, his or her facility. When a film comes in its spooled up or loaded if digital, to the playback systems and projected in what ever form its going to be shown in... Sound wise the Dolby and/or DTS processors that are playing the mix will be set to whatever level the owners/manager/or projectionist want. it might be set high or it might be set very low, all depending on where the theater is located, the audience, and the films shown... If the film is played in 1500 theaters you can bet that its being heard at all sorts of levels. Not counting the completely screwed up ones that destroy or damage mixes due to in appropriate calibration to start off with. I've taken materials out to test in actual theaters and i've done reviews for DTS as well... The levels are all over the map. I have NEVER seen a projectionist set theater levels to tones off a given film, EVER. Hell, it's hard enough to get them to even get the theater remotely correct once a year, let alone reset for each and every film that comes in. Especially when they are managing many films, in multiple theaters for multiple runs in a given day. On top of all this, the audience can place a lot of pressure on the theaters to set levels for comfort... In NYC people are sued to loud all day long, but if your near a community like , lets say Huntington NY, you'll find films being played a bit quieter, with middle age, and older folk complaining to management about ultra loud mixes..... see it in person. More and more so since some of these film mixes are getting down right hurtful and fatiguing at times.

[tpad]

How much headroom do you need? You need to be careful with this, because not all theater reproduction chains necessarily have the dynamic range to play back material recorded like you're suggesting.

[cananball]

Georgia, you have been to Cinema Arts Center in Huntington? Thats out in my neck of the woods. Check out the Plaza Cinema & Media Arts Center in Patchogue. It's a non profit art house cinema I co-founded 2 years ago. We just opened our new location in October, with seating for 75.

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More on topic, as the sound guy who runs the playback there, patrons do complain about loud mixes an ask us to turn them down. I have reluctantly complied.

[ggegan]

What, 105dB SPL coming out of 6 speakers isn't loud enough for you?

No matter how loud you make it, the theaters can always turn it down some more, which they will do when people complain - and believe me, people will complain, and probably sue.

[funkcity]

There were certain people that wanted 24dB (as opposed to the standard 20)of headroom when Digital Cinema went 24 bit depth. And although a true orchestral recording could benefit from this what would happen in fact would be is that big bang-bang mixes would literally kill people at now a peak of 110 dB per channel!

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio

Yes I see what you're saying. I would like to think that if a theater received a film with the 1k test tone 4db lower than usual that they would turn up the speakers by 4DB to match the test tone. But in the real world I dont know if that would happen.

What might happen is that they raise their volume from 4 to 5 ;-)

Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio

Also when you say Dolby Box are you talking about the Dolby Cinema Server?

The CP650, 65 or whatever generation of dolby cinema processor they have installed. On these boxes the standard is at "7" in reality films are played back as low as 4 or 5.
Therefor producers want their films mixed louder that are then turned further down in the theaters etc. etc.

A circle that has been discussed a thousand times here.

Now dolby is working on 13.1 and 11.1 formats. I wish they´d rather invest their energy into maintaining their standard volume.