GENERAL Average DB settings?

[wwjd]

* I've looked through the sticky with tons of info and links and read some of the link documents, and maybe what I seek is impossible to pen out

** I'm aware I'll take a lot of heat for this post and lots of "Just read it your self" type of stuff, but I hope to appeal to those of you who have been there, and might have the answers to post up.


I am seeking very basic, generalized, generic, average standard DB ranges for various works: online video, dvd, blueray, real movies, commercials etc.
My background is music mixing and mastering and we would say

RMS: tween 14 and 25 PEAKS: -.3 tops real world RMS -10
(even though ranges will vary and some push the peaks also)

To save me the hassle of loading up 20 movies, 20 commercials, 20 online videos and making my own graph of averages, can someone provide
the MOST BASIC GUIDELINES that does not require me reading and assimulating 200 pages of PBS and Discover channel manuals?

Would be cool if we could create a very, basic reference chart with just a bunch of numbers, maybe like this:

DB chart:

Format RMS PEAK TYPICAL (real world) Indsutry stand.

Music -14 -20 -.3 -12 none
DVD -20 -6 -16 -18
Movie -22 -1 -18 -18
Commercials -5 0 0 <just kidding!

number above made up of course.
Anyone see this as being sort of possible to create?
I don't know enough about this to know if I am asking the right question and seeking the proper response so please be gentle

[Dallas Taylor]

music = idiotically loud with no dynamic range
theater playback = calibrate room, then use ears. every film will be different
dvd = calibrate room, then use ears. everything will be different
tv = tons of different standards, but most are adopting -24 +/-2 LKFS

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Dallas Taylor

music = idiotically loud with no dynamic range
theater playback = calibrate room, then use ears. every film will be different
dvd = calibrate room, then use ears. everything will be different
tv = tons of different standards, but most are adopting -24 +/-2 LKFS

Yep.
For TV I'm mixing at 79 to meet the -24 +/-2 spec.

[mikevarela]

there are standards for calibration, so you should read that sticky.
Once calibrated, most people mix TV to 79 dbspl and 85 dbspl for film. The ATSC spec also has tables for cubic feet of your room.

also, it's becoming standard to mix TV to a dialnorm level of -24 lkfs which can be measured with the dolby media meter 2 plugin.

you need to calibrate your room, set the volume knob to the desired spl level and then mix by ears. usually getting dialogue in the right area and then mixing around that.

[wwjd]

Thanks for the input. I'll look into the room calibration thing. Sounds different than room tuning like we do in music. Also, in music we listen average, much louder, and much quieter while mixing to make sure we cover those bases. Sounds like TV/Movie is a different beast.

I was hoping for things to look at on basic meters to compare with commercial stuff.
As in, I could pull up TITANIC, and mimic the audio dialog parts, soft parts, and loudest parts by knowing what those ranges would be - I can get there without relearning monitoring even though I understand the fletcher munson curve that is apparently used a lot in post mixing and level setting.
I like using like reference material.

[insomaniac]

When I was setting up my small room, I dropped the 5.1 of "The Bourne Supremacy" into my system to get a feel for how the tuning was going. Having some reference material will give you an idea of how your system performs.

[conleec]

Originally Posted by insomaniac

When I was setting up my small room, I dropped the 5.1 of "The Bourne Supremacy" into my system to get a feel for how the tuning was going. Having some reference material will give you an idea of how your system performs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to be a little bit careful doing this, only because it doesn't take into account the bass management in your DVD or BluRay playback device. Your surrounds will sound a bit more anemic than the full-range playback during your mix, and your sub will be getting sounds that aren't specific to your LFE. (Unless, of course, you're incorporating bass management into your mix to compensate.)

Although it will give you a ballpark estimate of what your levels sound like compared to a good commercially printed mix.

Chris

[insomaniac]

Originally Posted by conleec

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to be a little bit careful doing this, only because it doesn't take into account the bass management in your DVD or BluRay playback device. Your surrounds will sound a bit more anemic than the full-range playback during your mix, and your sub will be getting sounds that aren't specific to your LFE. (Unless, of course, you're incorporating bass management into your mix to compensate.)

Although it will give you a ballpark estimate of what your levels sound like compared to a good commercially printed mix.

Chris

There was no bass management in play, as the playback was a direct out via Pro Tools. VLC allows you to decode AC-3 and send out to 6 discreet outputs, or transcode it into a 6-channel WAV.

However, you are right, if you're running through a decoder with BM in it, this can be dangerous. Pitfalls aplenty.

[conleec]

Interesting to hear about VLC decoding AC3s, didn't know that. Even at that, however, there could still be a slight issue if my understanding of AC3 encoding is correct...and that is that in order to keep datarates down, the rear channels are brickwall limited to something like 6Khz, and the sub is brickwall limited to 120Hz, both of which can of course be exceeded in the mix room with full-range monitors. Since this limiting occurs during encode, it could still slightly color your testing. Although levels should be proper, I think, which is the primary purpose of the test.

Chris

[wwjd]

wouldn't he be doing the whole pink-noise schpeel on his room besides just ear-balling it with a ref disc? I assume he would be and have the bass already setup properly if he is mixing 5.1 like a boss

he mentions having the disc be just a ballpark estimate anyway

[danijel]

Originally Posted by conleec

if my understanding of AC3 encoding is correct...

No, you mixed some apples and some oranges - The surround (not rear!) channels are not band-limited.

BTW, I've never heard anyone use the term "brickwall limiting" for frequency domain band-limiting.

[conleec]

Okay, you are correct. The second paragraph on page 3-6 of Dolby's 5.1 Production Guidelines whitepaper is what confused me. The encoded material is indeed full bandwidth, but Dolby decoders in most consumer gear will band limit the surround speakers to 7K to facilitate smaller bookshelf speakers.

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/z...2.5.1guide.pdf

So, as the earlier user mentioned, a decoded AC3 stream played directly does give an accurate sense of things. Thanks for the clarification, and very good to know. Regarding the term "brickwall limiting," Dolby themselves use the term brickwall filtering in their whitepaper. I suppose I simply took liberties with my interpretation.

Chris

[rfnoise]

You may be confusing terms when you read that paper. AC3 decoders do NOT reduce surround high frequencies while decoding anything. Dolby Surround or Dolby Pro Logic decoders, each are essentially the same matrix technology, DO reduce surround high frequencies during encode as well as playback. Pro Logic II and Dolby Digital (and other surround variants) do NOT reduce high frequency bandwidth.

AC3 does bandwidth limit LFE, but it is at a much higher frequency than 120hz. I forget exactly, somewhere above 600hz if memory serves.