Alan Meyerson on Pensado's Place...

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Cool video. Alan get's interviewed by Dave Pensado on Pensado's Place. Talks about recording and mixing scores for films. Very interesting, thought people here would be interested in it.

- Pensado's Place - #50 - Alan Meyerson - YouTube

[drBill]

Thx Derek - will check it out.

Great stuff Derek - loved his thoughts on placement of C items in the LCR stage. L/C and C/R basically being L/R combos. Not explaining it right, but you know what I mean....

[Etch-A-Sketch]

yeah, I usually try to keep score out of the center or quieter in the center. For parts where I want something featured in the center I've also noticed you need to "diverge" it into the L/R to sound full, but I usually don't put it equal volume in all three.

That can really mess with the LtRt since in the stereo fold-down anything in the center is added to the L and R (making anything going going to LCR as he describes much louder in the LtRt). And I'm not sure how well that would decode from an LtRt... the decoder might put the center stuff straight in the center and not in the L-C-R. For bigger theatrical features that are using Dolby Digital EX or whatnot, it probably isn't a concern, but they still have to make an LtRt and Optical track... and so I would imagine it could get tough to get a useable LtRt on an optical track doing that, especially in a big music only moment...

It would have been interesting to have some of the re-recording mixers that work with him up there as well, to see if they say they end up pulling down his C channel (or his L and R channels) most of the time when he does that sort of thing, or mentioning things they do to keep that from getting messed up in the LtRt and potentially distorting the optical track...

[drBill]

Yeah, always a good reality check to see what the re-recoding mixers do to your "perfectly mixed" mix. I generally stay OUT of C unless it's a big music little to no dialog/SFX type cue. That's why I found his treatment of L/C as a L/R mix and C/R as another L/R mix interesting. Unless of course I'm completely missing his concept.....

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

Great video I would say. Lots of valuable info there...

I would love to see similar interview with top rerecording mixers - it would be great to hear some details about mixing projects, relationships with directors, producers, supervising sound editors and so on...

best,
Kuba

[danijel]

Just saw it late last night - Alan is an inspiring man and I wanna try all kinds of stuff after seeing this!

Could someone please tell me what was the film they mention that was mixed almost entirely mono, with only the worldized synth score coming in from all over? Traffic? I'm too lazy to search through the video to find that piece of info..... But then again, I wouldn't mind seeing this entire video again

[Everbeatz]

It'd be great to have Alan here at Q&A gearslutz section!

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by danijel

Just saw it late last night - Alan is an inspiring man and I wanna try all kinds of stuff after seeing this!

Could someone please tell me what was the film they mention that was mixed almost entirely mono, with only the worldized synth score coming in from all over? Traffic? I'm too lazy to search through the video to find that piece of info..... But then again, I wouldn't mind seeing this entire video again

It was Traffic wasn't it?

Traffic (2000) - IMDb

I was trying to jump around the video to see where he says it again but couldn't find it. I remember him saying it was "Traffic", but I could be remembering it wrong.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Kuba_Pietrzak

Great video I would say. Lots of valuable info there...

I would love to see similar interview with top rerecording mixers - it would be great to hear some details about mixing projects, relationships with directors, producers, supervising sound editors and so on...

best,
Kuba

Yeah, that would be cool. You should email Dave Pensado and tell him that! He seems like a big fan of films, so I'm sure it'd be something he would be interested in. And it seems like he is friend's with Alan, so I'm sure Alan could connect him to some great re-recording engineers here in hollywood.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by drBill

Yeah, always a good reality check to see what the re-recoding mixers do to your "perfectly mixed" mix. I generally stay OUT of C unless it's a big music little to no dialog/SFX type cue. That's why I found his treatment of L/C as a L/R mix and C/R as another L/R mix interesting. Unless of course I'm completely missing his concept.....

The way I understood what he was saying was that...

Because most people are not sitting in the center, putting music in the center only will sound weak and wimpy to those sitting on the sides and it won't feel like "center" it will feel like "right" or "left" based on where they are sitting.

So when he pans something to the left (on big music only moments) he pans it not just to the Left but puts it in the left and center. When he pans it right he puts it in right and center... and anything he puts in the center, like kick, snare, vocals, he puts in all three speakers (LCR) equally.

I understand why he does it. But when encoding to LtRt, the subsequent Dolby decode of the LtRt into LCRS, could potentially get really wacky. At least in my experience in making an LtRt it can. Music that is equal in volume in the left channel and right channel of an LtRt gets decoded into the center channel only.

So, if you fold down a snare drum that is equally loud in the L, C and R into L and R (turning the center channel feed down by 3dB). That is going to make the snare louder since you are summing the center channel into the Left and Right snare sounds. So now the snare will be louder in the LtRt than in your 5.1 WAV file mix, which opens you up to the potential of distorting your optical track if you are pushing the levels already. And when the LtRt is decoded, that snare will only come out the center (not LCR) and will be louder (by 3 or 6 dB?) than it was in the original mix.

When making LtRts for the films I've worked on, I've noticed I have to pan things like stereo music to the rears about 25~50% so that when decoded the things panned to the center of the music mix won't come out the center channel and fight the dialogue. I can't imagine if I was also sending those same things TO the center channel as well! they would be much louder and would only be in the Center.

I'm not saying Alan is doing it wrong... i'm just saying there must be a way to stop this wackiness with the LtRt and I'm wondering if anyone knows what that might be? Whether it's the re-recording mixing pulling down the center or the L/R channels or something else? I can't figure out what else it would be.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

It was Traffic wasn't it?

If the two of us remember it was Traffic, than Traffic it was.
I once started watching that movie but it didn't really touch me on any account, so I quit after about 20 minutes.... That gives me hope I'll be able to see it from a pure technical point, without being distracted by the story

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

The way I understood what he was saying was that...

Because most people are not sitting in the center, putting music in the center only will sound weak and wimpy to those sitting on the sides and it won't feel like "center" it will feel like "right" or "left" based on where they are sitting.

Yeah I know what you mean, I understood it on an intellectuall level, but I've yet to find a rerecording mixer who was excited about me putting something into C. Still, I'd like to learn more about how it all works out on his films. Like you were saying..... Obviously the guy knows his stuff. I have to believe it's due somewhat to the fact that he's on music/FX driven films a lot of the time. But maybe not.....

I'll second the motion - Alan for a GS Q&A!!!!

[cocamycola89]

4000 tracks????? can you imagine :P

[charles maynes]

no.... I cant imagine 4000 tracks.

I have worked on films up to around 1500 tracks though....

[NReichman]

Cliff Martinez's Traffic soundtrack is outstanding. Beautiful modern music. Like many movies today, the soundtrack often outshines the film itself in terms of artistic quality.

About those 4000 tracks... what are they doing? Sync'ing a bunch of Nuendo systems together? Or exaggerating and including the tracks that went into orchestral submix bounces?

[charles maynes]

if you ever get to see the original Traffic miniseries it is brilliant, and I think exceeds the remake in almost every way.

[Henchman]

4000 tracks?

Sorry, but that's out of control.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by NReichman

Cliff Martinez's Traffic soundtrack is outstanding. Beautiful modern music. Like many movies today, the soundtrack often outshines the film itself in terms of artistic quality.

I wasn't really aware of him until today when I checked his Wikipedia page.... he played drums on 'Ice Cream for Crow', one of my favorite Captain Beefheart albums, and I also love the 'Solaris' soundtrack.... Now I'll have to dig deeper

[demariai]

thanks for posting. I'll watch all their interviews!

[Henchman]

Am I the only one who finds 4000 tracks for a music score over the top?

[Henchman]

I do like the video, and his approach, and story how he got into doing movie scores.

[pethenis]

"Could you turn down that triangle a bit?"

"sure, no problem. Let's see, I believe that would be system 11.... There we go, OK here's all the percussion elements... Where's my VCA for handpercussion.... Got it, let's spill it on the desk... boom there it is... So would that be in the "tuned percussion" or.... nope... Ah, of course, the
metal handpercussion group, where else... Just a moment... OK, got them...O...K... There's eight of them playing simultaneously, recorded with close, medium and far perspectives... i guess I could turn them all down a dB or...No?...... OK, so you only want to turn down the ones that have that irritating metallic clickyness, but keep the illusion of the volume being the same.... Got it....just let me make one small phonecall.... hi honey, don't wait up for me, one of these days again...."

Originally Posted by Henchman

Am I the only one who finds 4000 tracks for a music score over the top?

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by pethenis

"Could you turn down that triangle a bit?"

"sure, no problem. Let's see, I believe that would be system 11.... There we go, OK here's all the percussion elements... Where's my VCA for handpercussion.... Got it, let's spill it on the desk... boom there it is... So would that be in the "tuned percussion" or.... nope... Ah, of course, the
metal handpercussion group, where else... Just a moment... OK, got them...O...K... There's eight of them playing simultaneously, recorded with close, medium and far perspectives... i guess I could turn them all down a dB or...No?...... OK, so you only want to turn down the ones that have that irritating metallic clickyness, but keep the illusion of the volume being the same.... Got it....just let me make one small phonecall.... hi honey, don't wait up for me, one of these days again...."

Exactly my point.

[Henchman]

Plus, we have those 4000 tracks, plus the dialog, walla, sfx, bgs and foley, and all being stuffed down not 5.1 speakers.

Really, slightly overkill don't you think?
I don't think they needed 4000 tracks do do the music for wizard of oz.
Seems to have held up pretty good over the years. Raising a single horn or triangle would not have made a difference.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Plus, we have those 4000 tracks, plus the dialog, walla, sfx, bgs and foley, and all being stuffed down not 5.1 speakers.

Really, slightly overkill don't you think?
I don't think they needed 4000 tracks do do the music for wizard of oz.
Seems to have held up pretty good over the years. Raising a single horn or triangle would not have made a difference.

I think the 4000 tracks includes all the original music sound design, midi prints, etc before predubs or anything.

I could see that... for example, in an action cue, one taiko hit could be 5 different taiko hits, 3 djun djuns, a grand casa and an 808 kick all mixed together to create that one perc "hit". So from a Protools or nuendo standpoint, that one hit requires 9 tracks of audio.

It's no different than sound effects and sound design creation and editing.

But then... after all the music "design", and midi is done... they also record live orchestra and instruments over top and blend the two together.

As alan had mentioned, when tracking orchestra, you commonly do multiple passes and the players have "divisi" parts to play. So, if you have a studio orchestra you might have 30 to 40 (or more) mics setup. Every "pass" you do of the same cue means 30 to 40 more tracks. It's not uncommon to do 2 or 3 passes. So now you have 60 to 120 tracks just for orchestra!

And with more of these scores incorporating modern music elements, you then have drumset, electric guitar, etc... I just did a drumset session the other day. It was a "Heavy rock/metal" session and we ended up using 24 mics on the drumset. When we do the guitars we'll probably use 3 or 4 mics on each guitar cabinet, and we'll end up doing 8 or 9 different guitar parts per song. So that's another 24~30 tracks of guitars. Add that in with orchestra, music design, and all the audio prints of the midi tracks and you can see how the track count just keeps adding up and adding up...

While 4000 does seem like a lot... just like anything else, if we were to look at it ourselves, it would probably make sense... and things were most likely being predubbed throughout the process to keep the actually "tracks currently being used" manageable.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I do like the video, and his approach, and story how he got into doing movie scores.

If you haven't yet... check out some more of the Pensado Place videos. The one with Bob Hodas is pretty interesting too!

[Henchman]

Etchasketch, having done music production myself, unless you're recording Neil pert size kits, 24 mics on a kit is completely overkill, no matter how you slice or dice it.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Etchasketch, having done music production myself, unless you're recording Neil pert size kits, 24 mics on a kit is completely overkill, no matter how you slice or dice it.

It's about having OPTIONS at a later point in time. When all you have to satisfy is yourself, a few mics may be fine. When you have to satisfy people who you've never met or talked to yet, OPTIONS down the road become important - and sometimes even life / project saving.

I'd also imagine that Alan's "4000" contains the stems printed out. If he's delivering in 7.1, and breaking out a lot of the individual orch passes, and prelays, etc., it all adds up at a dizzying rate. Again, options without having to revisit. I've worked for composers who basically want EVERYTHING in it's own 5.1 stem. Insane to me, but they know their clients, and I'm not going to tell them they can't do it.

All that said, personally, I hate having too many options - I like to commit. 4000 still seems exorbitantly high to me, but who are your or I to tell him how to work. Alan obviously has the chops and credits to back it up.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Etchasketch, having done music production myself, unless you're recording Neil pert size kits, 24 mics on a kit is completely overkill, no matter how you slice or dice it.

I disagree. It really depends on the sound you are trying to capture AS WELL AS the size of the instrument(s) you are trying to capture.

One mic on a guitar cabinet sounds DRAMATICALLY different than putting 4 on the same cabinet. The interaction (constructive and destructive phase interference) between the mics changes the sound in a way that isn't possible simply using EQ after the fact.

Same goes for drumset. A Glyn Johns Isosceles triangle mic setup (using only 3 mics) on a drumset sounds great. But it is a very specific and distinctive sound and might sound great on an Adele record. But it would not work on a Korn record or a Metallica record or a Maroon 5 record, etc

There are no "rules" except that it has to sound correct for the style and work within the context of the music. And that is the same for film music as well. Whatever it takes to get it there, whether it is 3 track or 4000, is what it takes.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by drBill

It's about having OPTIONS at a later point in time. When all you have to satisfy is yourself, a few mics is fine. When you have to satisfy people who you've never met or talked to yet, OPTIONS down the road become important - and sometimes even life / project saving.

I agree. But also, for me personally, as I mentioned in the above post. It's also about the sound and the interaction.

Going back to my taiko example, I think that's one that a lot of people might have experienced already whether mixing or programming or writing.

One taiko sample from true strike or storm drums never really cuts it. You end up blending a couple from storm drums, a couple from true strike, and then maybe something from morphestra or symphobia, and maybe add something from damage.

The combination of those sounds and they way they interact create the final desired effect. And it is something that no amount of compression or EQ or Verb could create from any one sound on its own.

It's no different than gun shots in a film. Can you put up one mic during a gun sampling session and capture all the nuances needed? Will that one mic capture the distance sound, the hammer sound, the shell casing sound, the explosion out of the barrel, the sound of the bullet cutting through the air? No... you need multiple mics to capture all the different sounds that interact... and then even when you do that... do you just use the sound of one gun??? Maybe sometimes yes, but a lot of the times no. The gun sounds get layered, using multiple different guns. Why? Because that is what it takes to get the sound needed for the scene.

Same thing, for me anyway, goes with mic'ing instruments. Putting 2 mics on a kick drum sounds different than putting 1. And I can move the mics to manipulate the sound I get. Putting 3 mics on the kick sounds different than 2. Putting 4 mics sounds different than 3. Each mic is chosen and placed to capture a certain aspect of the overall sound that one mic alone would never be able to do.

And ultimately that's all that matters.