To Clip or Not to Clip

[nathand]

I'm curious as to what others typically do. In a standard ADR Record (Boom and Lav) - do you clip the Lav on the actor?

Years ago a co-worker designed a custom QuickClip to mount a Lav on instead of clipping it on the actor. Reasoning was - why waste a take with cloth noise during a ADR session. Fair enough, but the sound was always lacking something for me. About a year ago I started clipping exclusively and haven't looked back.

Thoughts?

[Brian B]

I would always clip on the actor - that chest resonance is critical to the lav sound.

[tontostudio]

I always clip on. actors understand the process and know what needs to be done even if they want to complain about it. I have seen a lav clipped to a gooseneck on a mic stand to get in the correct position, I believe this would be a distractionand render the lav useless if an actor wants to make motions during ADR session.

[Lipflap]

Clip. I figure, what's the point otherwise?

[Tom Fleischman]

Every ADR editor I know records a lav track along with a boom. I can count on one hand the number of times I've used the lav track of an ADR line in a mix in the last decade. In fact, I always tell the ADR editor to hide those tracks because I'm not going to even listen to them unless there is a problem with the boom or on the rare occasion that I can't make the boom match the lavs that were used in production. Those instances are rare and if I need to go to them, I can ask the editor to replace the boom with the lav. I hate wasting my console real estate with ADR lav tracks that I won't use.

That said, I guess it depends on the situation whether or not to clip it on the actor. Do what makes sense for the scene that is being looped.

[Jussi]

Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman

. I can count on one hand the number of times I've used the lav track of an ADR line in a mix in the last decade.

A mixer Ive had pleasure to work with, who has a long career in mixing features and high-end tv-drama, goes 'ballistic' if I dont deliver both boom and lav, and routinely uses the lav or mix of both mics as needed. Usually in exteriors.

[Branko]

I almost never use these lav tracks. In 99% of the cases, it's the actors' performance that is critical for matching, assuming that you record ADR in a decent room, with no nasty reflexions.

I hate wasting my console real estate with ADR lav tracks that I won't use.

[Jfriah]

Sorry - I don't clip it... I prefer to NOT record the cloth/movement sounds I'm trying to fix in post. I clip it to a STAND placed at the same spot it would be on the actor, but not attached to the BODY / clothing.

Tom, that's really surprising to hear you throw that statistic out there. If I'm working on a scene where the primary dia is lav track in production, my go-to is going to be lav track ADR. Why mess with EQ'ing, etc. a boom recording to match the lav sound is the way I look at it?

Of course...I don't have the experience you do, either


Also, to go with your "go with what make sense for the scene".... I agree. As long as the MIXER is okay with that. I just did a project where the delivery specs from the post house said "do you best to match mic placement and tone to match the production sound"---I always love that. So...you're saying, make my ADR sound as poopy as the location sound? Gotcha. I can do that.... haha

off-topic: just a couple days ago I had to cover some 'talent show M.C.' ADR so I hooked up a hand-held mic to give a bit of 'realism' on an alternate track for the mixer. "go with what makes sense for the scene"

Jeff

[Tom Fleischman]

Originally Posted by Jussi

A mixer Ive had pleasure to work with, who has a long career in mixing features and high-end tv-drama, goes 'ballistic' if I dont deliver both boom and lav, and routinely uses the lav or mix of both mics as needed. Usually in exteriors.

Just goes to show that mixing, like everything else in life, is done differently by each individual. Wouldn't it be boring if we did everything the same way as everyone else. That's what makes horse racing.

Oh! And story is everything...

[Jussi]

Indeed Tom, indeed

[Steven1145]

I usually clip the lav on, to get a closer match to the proximity effect of the production sound lav. I'll use whichever mic sounds best, but as has been said before here: you can have ten mics and they wont save you if all you recorded was a crap performance, and one mic is all it takes if the actor is good and really into doing his ADR.

Sent from my XT910 using Gearslutz.com

[Tom Fleischman]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Tom, that's really surprising to hear you throw that statistic out there. If I'm working on a scene where the primary dia is lav track in production, my go-to is going to be lav track ADR. Why mess with EQ'ing, etc. a boom recording to match the lav sound is the way I look at it?

I just don't like the sound of lavaliers (I also prefer to favor the boom in the production tracks too if I can get away with it). A good boom mic sounds more natural to my ear. And no matter which of the ADR tracks you use, you're gong to have to process it, so why not start with the better sounding track? If I find myself in a situation where I'm having a problem matching the boom, I will ask the editor to bring the lav into the session and try the lav. The editor should always cut both mics, but I don't like taking up the room on the console unless there is a problem with the primary (boom) mic.

Also, to go with your "go with what make sense for the scene".... I agree. As long as the MIXER is okay with that. I just did a project where the delivery specs from the post house said "do you best to match mic placement and tone to match the production sound"---I always love that. So...you're saying, make my ADR sound as poopy as the location sound? Gotcha. I can do that.... haha

off-topic: just a couple days ago I had to cover some 'talent show M.C.' ADR so I hooked up a hand-held mic to give a bit of 'realism' on an alternate track for the mixer. "go with what makes sense for the scene"

Jeff

On most of the projects I've worked on over the years the dialogue and ADR editors and I will have a conversation about what lines I'd like to have looped, and part of that conversation usually involves how to mic things. We come to a consensus, and then the ADR editor let's the ADR mixer know what the agenda is. Good communication between the departments is always a good thing.

[Steven1145]

Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman

I just don't like the sound of lavaliers (I also prefer to favor the boom in the production tracks too if I can get away with it). A good boom mic sounds more natural to my ear. ...

I totally agree with that, and most of the time I try to get a scene to work with only the boom mic, and only put up the lavs if there are some lines that are too far/indistinct. I have also had some very good surprises from production sound mixers who were very, very good at placing their lavs so that they sounded natural (as much as can be) and without any clothes rustle. I still used the boom when it was possible though!

Talking of natural sounding, I'm currently watching Boardwalk Empire, and am hugely enjoying the dialog!! All the locations sound so natural. Kudos for such a great mix Tom (with all the pressure and little time there is to do so on a TV series).

[Tom Fleischman]

Originally Posted by Steven1145

I totally agree with that, and most of the time I try to get a scene to work with only the boom mic, and only put up the lavs if there are some lines that are too far/indistinct. I have also had some very good surprises from production sound mixers who were very, very good at placing their lavs so that they sounded natural (as much as can be) and without any clothes rustle. I still used the boom when it was possible though!

Talking of natural sounding, I'm currently watching Boardwalk Empire, and am hugely enjoying the dialog!! All the locations sound so natural. Kudos for such a great mix Tom (with all the pressure and little time there is to do so on a TV series).

Thank you so much! Doing a series like that is hard work, much harder than a feature in many ways. Thanks for the compliment.

[FullFrequency]

My first instinct when mixing is to go for the boom as I too prefer the sound. However after recent experimentation i've found that for more intimate, tight shots I've been using the lav a bit more in certain situations. I do scoop out the low end proximity sound, but I like the feeling of being "inside the personal space" of the character when your'e trying to get to know them a little more.

So in answer to the question.... clip

[santacore]

Originally Posted by Steven1145

Talking of natural sounding, I'm currently watching Boardwalk Empire, and am hugely enjoying the dialog!! All the locations sound so natural. Kudos for such a great mix Tom (with all the pressure and little time there is to do so on a TV series).

Agreed!! I love the show and it really does sound fantastic. Tom, how much Foley is used in the domestic? As Steven said, everything sounds very natural.

As for lav's-If I use one, I will clip it on the shirt, and sometimes add console tape if the actor is particularly shifty.

Most mixers tell me they never use those tracks, but to go ahead and shoot them anyways.

As an alternate, and if the rooms good, I might use a U87 or quality SDC up close instead of the lav..

[Bill@AudioVision]

I'll clip a lav - usually trying to replace a poor or incorrect take. Since the recording has no picture element, (mic doesn't need to be hidden) I'll get plenty of gaff tape involved to keep clothing and cable noise out. I do tons of DR stuff, so it's usually lavs that are the most usable. Booms never get very close and/or the 'sets' are really only good to look at.
For feature work, it might be both boom and lav, but I'll spend most of the time on the boom sound to make sure it matches.

[Tom Fleischman]

Originally Posted by santacore

Agreed!! I love the show and it really does sound fantastic. Tom, how much Foley is used in the domestic? As Steven said, everything sounds very natural.

Thank you!

Lot's of foley, and a fair amount of ADR. They shoot and prebub foley for everything, obviously, and I run it into the mix, making adjustments as necessary. If there is good clean production FX I dump the foley. If there are conflicts and the production is good I dump the foley, but the editors make a good effort to top the production carefully, so a large percentage of the foley winds up in the mix. We do have a luxurious schedule by TV standards, about 5 or 6 days per episode (which includes playback, mix notes, fixes, M&E and QC notes)

[santacore]

Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman

Thank you!

Lot's of foley, and a fair amount of ADR. They shoot and prebub foley for everything, obviously, and I run it into the mix, making adjustments as necessary. If there is good clean production FX I dump the foley. If there are conflicts and the production is good I dump the foley, but the editors make a good effort to top the production carefully, so a large percentage of the foley winds up in the mix. We do have a luxurious schedule by TV standards, about 5 or 6 days per episode (which includes playback, mix notes, fixes, M&E and QC notes)

Well again, great work by you and the C5 guys. I've been very impressed with the sound on the all the recent Scorsese stuff. Keep rocking it!!!

Now back to lav talk......

[danijel]

When I get boom+lav ADR, I'm always listening to both tracks, and start from the one that matches the PREMIXED dialogue better. More often it will be the boom (irregardles of what I've actually used from the location), but lavs sometimes win too. And I don't care if it has been clipped or not, as long as there is no excess rustle, and it is close enough to sound dry and chest-ish, like a lav should
When I record ADR myself, I will always do it against a premixed dialogue, or at least a quick premix, and use only the boom to match it, whether I used the lav or the boom from the location. When I need to match the dryer sound of the lavs, I will set up the boom closer, and maybe more off-axis. That works for me, and I don't have to deal with two sets of tracks throughout the process.