The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo

[piotr]

Originally Posted by ljudatervinning

Virtually no Swedish made film make any money, they are all payed by the Swedish tax payers. It's rather safe to claim that the Swedish version was not made for the money...

And that brings a nice twist to our conversation here, doesn't it...

;-)

p.

[Tom Fleischman]

Originally Posted by nathand

I felt the balance was the same as where Fincher had the music on The Social Network. And a lot of the sounds were reminiscent to my ear. Especially the feedback/distortion beds. I'm curious what you thought of that mix.

Never saw "The Social Network". Could you hear the dialogue?

In "Dragon Tattoo" it just seemed to me that either the composer was running the mix, or, more likely, not enough attention was paid to making the dialogue intelligible, a common problem in some of the Fincher films that I have seen (Se7en, Panic Room, Zodiac, and Benjamin Button come to mind).

Originally Posted by piotr

I am absolutely sure that all involved in making of the American movie gave it their best effort. I never questioned that. My questions were entirely regarding the impetus driving the idea behind re-doing the movies. Especially so soon after the release of the Swedish originals.
p.

The impetus? Money, what else? They saw an opportunity to make some and they took it. Successfully it seems...

[ErikG]

Originally Posted by ljudatervinning

Virtually no Swedish made film make any money, they are all payed by the Swedish tax payers. It's rather safe to claim that the Swedish version was not made for the money...

As a fellow swede that is utter BS.
Every producer and production co goal is to make money on the film they produce, and most do, not always a lot but they do.

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by ljudatervinning

Virtually no Swedish made film make any money, they are all payed by the Swedish tax payers. It's rather safe to claim that the Swedish version was not made for the money...

Originally Posted by piotr

And that brings a nice twist to our conversation here, doesn't it...

;-)

p.

And what happens when the government can no longer fund film via taxes? I would much rather have the flawed system we have because I know that it does exist because it has profits and not in some closed eco system paid for by taxes that may not be there in 10 years. I wouldn't want to build a career on some entitlement society that could be pulled away at any time. I think that Europe has a lot of positives but the model they have made for themselves doesnt seem to be sustainable. But I am heading towards a political discussion...

[audiomm]

. I think that Europe has a lot of positives but the model they have made for themselves doesnt seem to be sustainable. But I am heading towards a political discussion...[/QUOTE]

...and american way is sustainable?
Wach Flow_For The Love Of Water Movie
or any of Zeitgeist movies...

All best in 2012!

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by audiomm

. I think that Europe has a lot of positives but the model they have made for themselves doesnt seem to be sustainable. But I am heading towards a political discussion...

...and american way is sustainable?
Wach Flow_For The Love Of Water Movie
or any of Zeitgeist movies...

All best in 2012![/QUOTE]

Im saying that funding via tax dollars isnt as sustainable as a model that relies on success in the market.


As for the rest I make no comments or comparisons.

[ljudatervinning]

@ErikG
That is great if things have changed! 2003-2006 112 films were made in Sweden. 11 made enough money to cover the production cost, but only 4 made profit (and actually repaid some of the money)

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman

Never saw "The Social Network". Could you hear the dialogue?

In "Dragon Tattoo" it just seemed to me that either the composer was running the mix, or, more likely, not enough attention was paid to making the dialogue intelligible, a common problem in some of the Fincher films that I have seen (Se7en, Panic Room, Zodiac, and Benjamin Button come to mind).



The impetus? Money, what else? They saw an opportunity to make some and they took it. Successfully it seems...

Hey Tom- Social Network was pretty briiliant sound wise. It was a very creatively satisfying mix in my opinion... I have to say though that Fincher's Fight Club is one of my favorite films ever though....

[subbasshead]

Totally agree re Fight Club!

its hard to even compare Finchers latter films with Fight Club - nerds arguing over getting rich w web apps/amercanizing a european film etc vs such a deeply political film as Fight Club?

I couldn't speak for about half an hour after first seeing Fight Club - I often wonder if Fight Club would even get funded nowadays/post Sept 11?

Check this lego infographic of the plot of Fight Club:

lego fight club movie narrative - information aesthetics

/sorry - stop hijacking thread now

[ErikG]

Originally Posted by ljudatervinning

@ErikG
That is great if things have changed! 2003-2006 112 films were made in Sweden. 11 made enough money to cover the production cost, but only 4 made profit (and actually repaid some of the money)

Oh they are not making a lot of BO profit, that's for sure. But they do make sure they get a good cut of the production budget instead.
So most production co still do quite well despite the films failing on BO numbers...

[soundrick]

Originally Posted by marclop

it captures perfectly the essense of the book.

I would disagree with this. The remake ruined the main character.
In the Swedish version, she is HARD, callous and badass all around, a character that takes control and never lets her guard down, that is the essence of the book.

The remake made her a little too open and even "loving". That just ruined it for me.

I'm scared of Lisbeth Salander from the original movie/book, and should be. The remake Lisbeth, eh, not so much.........

I'd like to take the opening credit sequence and stitch it onto the original film. Other than that............
Bust.......

[Tom Fleischman]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

Hey Tom- Social Network was pretty briiliant sound wise. It was a very creatively satisfying mix in my opinion... I have to say though that Fincher's Fight Club is one of my favorite films ever though....

Agreed. Fight Club is a masterpiece. Absolutely brilliant!

[DrummerMan]

Didn't really like the opening credits at all. First thought was, "soooo, they're putting a 'noire' Bond opening onto a movie.... STARRING JAMES BOND...". That's either a (failed, IMO) attempt at being cute, or just a straight-up fail. Again, it's just my opinion and if I'd liked it better I probably wouldn't have cared. It just didn't seem to fit any of my notions of what the story was about. My wife's point was that this sequence objectifying a woman's body in leather/dragons/etc being torn apart and re-morphed didn't give the idea of a strong badass female character, despite whatever the attempt was, and I agreed.
The song....meh. I thought that was also a failed attempt at wittiness. Yes, yes I get it... "ice and snow" and Vikings and such... Yeah, yeah, I get it's in Sweden...

Besides that I actually quite liked the movie. I thought the music was distracting at times, especially when they kept on doing that "ramp up the distorted static-y thing" during action-less dialog sequences, though I assumed it was an artistic choice by Fincher (as opposed to anything any sane mixing engineer would do on his/her own) and it annoyed me less as the movie went on. Thought the acting and cinematography were great and overall an enjoyable experience.

Haven't seen the swedish films yet, though we've kept meaning to.

[cananball]

The originals are excellent. Remaking them in english will appeal to a broad audience that don't enjoy watching a subtitled film.

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[Jfriah]

Interesting reading the comments about Fight Club. Slightly 'O.T.' to discuss, but yes, I also had that 'what the hell did I just watch???' for about the same time period after. Brilliant.

And, yes, I thought the mix on The Social Network was both creatively done as well as difficult to hear some dialogue under music (I still tell young directors [cough cough and old] I work with to watch the club scene where the actors are ACTUALLY RAISING THEIR VOICES TO TALK ACROSS THE TABLE TO EACH OTHER--just had to mix yet another scene where source music is desired for a bar scene but the actors weren't directed properly..."why is the music so quiet? the bar should be full of people and music?"--Jeff turns up beds and music--"why can't I hear them talking now?"--Jeff says "because they're talking. Not TALKING!")

Jeff

[nathand]

Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman

Never saw "The Social Network". Could you hear the dialogue?

I could.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman

not enough attention was paid to making the dialogue intelligible, a common problem in some of the Fincher films that I have seen (Se7en, Panic Room, Zodiac, and Benjamin Button come to mind).

I have to agree.

As a dialog mixer, I know there's no excuse for un-intelligible dialog.

[stangroom]

Very interesting to hear all of the comments about the dialogue on this post. I don't remember having an issue with it when I saw it, but I am scheduled to see it again in the next few weeks and will pay more attention to that aspect, to see what everyone's talking about.

[eastwestaudio]

I had many of the same issues.

I for one read all the books, and watched all the Swedish films. There were elements in the books that I never felt were captured in the original movies, so I for one was excited to learn Fincher was directing the english version.

That said, I felt the remake was not that great compared to the original.

The opening sequence was pointless.
The choppiness of the next 10 or so minutes really confused me.
They should have used that opening credit time to allow more time for the exposition.

The music track was really un-inspiring. Though I have come to really enjoy The Social Network, Reznors music just seemed pointless in this film. I too have long been a fan of Fight Club and thought Zodiac was pretty good - so I have come to expect really great stuff from Fincher - but this one just falls flat IMO.

BTW - was anyone else distracted by the overly creaky leather chairs?

[Boschen]

Originally Posted by piotr

I am absolutely sure that all involved in making of the American movie gave it their best effort. I never questioned that. My questions were entirely regarding the impetus driving the idea behind re-doing the movies. Especially so soon after the release of the Swedish originals.
p.

Ah I see! And quite agree.
The US movie biz is a whorish beast; it wheels and turns at the whim of Mammon. And I heard the new GWTDT film took in only 19.4 million over the holiday, which is hardly a success, and casts doubt on any quick sequels...

I didn't know Swedish films were so heavily subsidized, as another poster pointed out. I'm a bit conflicted over that model of funding, but if it produces great films, hey... Still, the film-makers have to pay their players and creative folks, even if the thing makes little profit, so I guess there are monetary pressures, albeit from different directions.

I wonder if the Swede film-makers feel similarly constrained by their budgets, etc, in the way US peeps are? I guess it comes down to what's possible with what you have.... these are the pressures that seem to create good movies when you have to improvise.

Was it 'The Bad and The Beautiful', where they have those cat-monster costumes? 'A bit of muslin will cover that up... These have been hanging a long time; you can't get this material any more.... Lots of character in the tail, plenty of fright.... you can get the effect... see?'

EDIT: Ahhh, google....



Here's a clip of the scene; this is must-watch material if unfamiliar....

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/1...e-Cat-Men.html

[stangroom]

Originally Posted by eastwestaudio

Reznors music just seemed pointless in this film.

This I actually do have to agree with. Nothing at all was memorable about it for this collaboration. All of the ambient tones just seemed to blend into the environment too much, and never helped propel the story forward for me.

[ErikG]

In Sweden there would be no films without subsidising...
With a total population of 8million and a successful film gets around 500000-1000000 viewers. There simply is no regular business model that would finance a decent feature film.

The main subsidising is actually not from the government but from within the film/video/tv business itself.

Of course the film makers have similar budget issues here. Only the budgets here are much smaller than yours...
A typical Swedish feature would have a total budget of 2-4 million USD.
The largest film budget so far was around 20 million USD (for two feature films and a TV series version as well).
Compare that to Dragon Tattoo with a budget of 80 million USD (Wikipedia)...

[cananball]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Interesting reading the comments about Fight Club. Slightly 'O.T.' to discuss, but yes, I also had that 'what the hell did I just watch???' for about the same time period after. Brilliant.

And, yes, I thought the mix on The Social Network was both creatively done as well as difficult to hear some dialogue under music (I still tell young directors [cough cough and old] I work with to watch the club scene where the actors are ACTUALLY RAISING THEIR VOICES TO TALK ACROSS THE TABLE TO EACH OTHER--just had to mix yet another scene where source music is desired for a bar scene but the actors weren't directed properly..."why is the music so quiet? the bar should be full of people and music?"--Jeff turns up beds and music--"why can't I hear them talking now?"--Jeff says "because they're talking. Not TALKING!")

Jeff

I just saw Social Network and have to agree the dialogue was hard to understand at moments. Particularly the opening bar scene and the club scene. Very annoying.


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[loois]

thought the remakes stood way out over the original swedish, I was actually quite disappointed with the Swedish versions.
I thought the flow of the remake matched the book far better, and much preferred both the new leads.
but i certainly thought that opening credit sequence was uber cheezy...

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by stangroom

Nothing at all was memorable about it for this collaboration. All of the ambient tones just seemed to blend into the environment too much, and never helped propel the story forward for me.

Sounds like the sign of a good 'under'score to me...nothing memorable...blends in...

Jeff

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by cananball

I just saw Social Network and have to agree the dialogue was hard to understand at moments. Particularly the opening bar scene and the club scene. Very annoying.


Sent from my DROIDX using Gearslutz.com App

Again, not to hijack the GWTDT thread, but that's the thing I did like about The Social Network's opening scene. It was non-stop talking and you really had to shut your stupid phone off and pay attention to the movie you just paid $x to see.



Jeff

[D'Animation]

I only went to see the film this weekend and had held off reading this till I had formed my own opinions. For me, the dialog was well done and I could hear everything. What I hated was the score (think it was the score, could be a few design elements too) - constant droning and weird feedback things just got annoying after the first 20min. For me it really got in the way of everything and actually added nothing. I saw the Social Network and I wasn't blown away by the score on that either but I thought it at least worked with the film - from a pure creative side, I'll be first to admit the electronic ambient stuff isn't my first pref anyway, but I can still appreciate when something works with a story.

Having watched the swedish films but only managed half the first book (wasn't reading regularly enough so too many names and details to keep track of inbetween, not the books fault mind you) - I thought it carried enough of the story and the casting was good - in all honesty I would mix and match scs between the swedish and us versions for a 'perfect film'.

As for why they remade it, lets not underestimate that some people really hate subtitles and won't put the effort in...and it did seem like a perfect match for a David Fincher film - he just wasn't necessarily going to add much to the originals.

[SoundGuyIC]

Hey everyone!

This question is addressed to anyone, really, because it's an issue we all face creatively, but I would love to see what people like Tom and Henchmen have to say about it.

Re. unintelligible dialogue:

In your opinion, at what point does unintelligible dialogue stop being a valid creative choice and start becoming an inappropriate mix decision? I've worked with directors - to be fair, I'm a student, so these are all student directors - who are very particular about the mix of their film. "I want the music to be conflicting with the dialog, so you don't know which to listen to" was a constant artistic comment made by one of my directors last semester. We're told in school to always "do what best serves the story," and we're also told that "it's not your film, it's the director's film." These two statements lead me to do exactly what the director asked, and she was very satisfied with the outcome of the mix.

But at the same time, my job as the re-recording mixer is to choose what to play, and how to play it for any particular moment, and tell the story to the audience in a way that they can understand. If they can't hear the dialogue, or if they're fighting to hear it, not only are they they're missing out on major elements of the story, but they're also taken out of the scene, and may miss the next 30 seconds because they're trying to figure out what the character just said.

What are some things to think about the next time I'm faced with this situation? What is an appropriate way to suggest to a director that maybe they're not hitting the mark quite right? Is it ever appropriate to suggest that I may be able to help them find that mark, but it may mean re-conceiving how they originally thought of a scene sonically?

I'd love to hear what people think about this!

[Mikkel Nielsen]

Interesting subject.
You should start a new topic about your thoughts.

[chrisjay]

In my point of view, this is an art movie, gr8 work done by the girl(I don't know her name) and Denial Craig.

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