Back to business or not...

[philper]

Originally Posted by matskull

Hi guys,

When I was 20 years old I got my first job in post-production as an assistant, I always worked for the same company but they bought a studio at some point and I started working there at that time. I wasn't a permanent employee but I was what they called "pay-roll" and I was working pretty much full time (I wasn't a free lancer but I didn't have insurances and stuff like that neither).

I worked there from 20 to 24 years old, during the last year I worked there (during the economy crash), there was less and less work for me and I got pretty frustrated with the situation. On top of that there were some people there that I couldn't stand anymore.
I was still living at my dad's house and I couldn't see the day where I'd move out of there if I didn't make more money. I couldn't keep working only a couple hours every now and then if I wanted to have a normal life.

So, after a lot of thinking and after realizing that I was really unhappy with my life at that moment I decided to quit my job in post-production. Really hard decision to make!
I got a steady job with a better salary, good advantages like insurances and all of that stuff and I moved into a new appartment with my girlfriend.
All of this is good but now at 26 years old, I can't see myself doing something I don't like for the rest of my life, I really miss doing what I love for a living day after day.

I wonder if I should try to go back in post-production or not. Is it really possible to work full-time with a good salary in the industry?
I want to do what I like 8 hours a day, but I don't want to wonder if I'll be able to pay the bills every month...

How do you do it?
I just wanted to share my experience and hear from people who work in the business..

Sorry for the long post.
Thanks

Sure it's possible. But only with a lot of work and some luck. Are you ok with moving to a media city like LA? Are you ok with building a setup of your own so you can start taking work on your own? Are you ok with attending screenings and events etc and doing other schmooze stuff to get your name around? Are you willing to do non-post audio jobs to stay working? Find a non-audio job that gives you some support and flexibility to make the transition (that will definitely NOT pay well or give you insurance and etc)? If you're good with all that then you've got a shot, and good luck! BTW, almost all posties are freelancers these days (unless they are also facility owners), so the job security + insurance thing might be tough to find anymore in audio. There are possibilities for insurance via the union or other associations, however.

phil p

[Slash Asterisk]

Keep your job with benefits and salary. Post is a hard road as you know and u already passed the prime time to deal w a hard road 22-27 . Just my advice though

[soundguydave]

I went through a fairly similar situation myself. I started out a great facility as an assistant and moved up very quickly to the point where I had my own room at a small audio company. Everything seemed fine, I was making okay money and business was seemingly growing. Then the salary decreases came in (poor management) and I had to work with some pretty awful, untalented people. I made the decision to move on from audio full time, as there weren't many other shops in town hiring. You'd be surprised how well our skills translate to other industries, most people don't have the work ethic audio people do.

I built out a nice studio at home and kept a good relationship with some of the studios in the city. Now I can pick and choose some fun projects to work on throughout the year and I don't have to rely on them to may the mortgage. When the filmmaker calls asking me to work on his horrible project for free saying the next one will be paid, I can say no without being worried about losing money. I don't need to show up to industry events and schmooze people.

You definitely need to love what you do, but you outlined some pretty solid reasons why you may love audio, but not as work. I came to the conclusion that while I love audio, doing it full time (at least at the facility I was at) made me hate it. I didn't want to lose the passion, so I made the choice to put myself in a situation where I could continue to love it. Its been over a year and I have yet to look back with any regret.

[matskull]

Originally Posted by soundguydave

I came to the conclusion that while I love audio, doing it full time (at least at the facility I was at) made me hate it. I didn't want to lose the passion, so I made the choice to put myself in a situation where I could continue to love it.

That's exactly how I felt, I started to hate it and I had all sort of bad feelings about it.
I love audio but this wasn't the right studio for me and it wasn't the right time either with the bad economy.

I don't wanna start over again as an assistant with a poor salary and no stability. But god damn I miss being in the studio and I don't have access to my home studio since I moved, it's still at my dad's house, I can't move my 800 lb console in my appartment...

Do you guys think it'd be a good idea to keep my actual job and try to get some audio contract at the same time? I think it might be a good start to see if I still have talent and if I can make it in the business.

[matskull]

Originally Posted by Slash Asterisk

Keep your job with benefits and salary. Post is a hard road as you know and u already passed the prime time to deal w a hard road 22-27 . Just my advice though

You're right, it's a tough job and I feel like I'm at a rough time in life.

[philper]

Originally Posted by matskull

You're right, it's a tough job and I feel like I'm at a rough time in life.

Well--ditch the 800Lb console and set yourself up as best you can where you are now--on a laptop if you need to. Do a freebie project for someone and see if the interest is still there for you, see where that leads you.

phil p

[Henchman]

So, after only 4 years, you gave up when it got a little tough.
Seems like you are better off doing what you're doing, this is not the industry for you. I seems, that just like most, you want it, and you want it now.
But it could easily take another 10, long hard years to make get where you want to be. And thats just the beginning.

I was working in factories for 3 years in Holland, to save money to move to the us, when i was 20. Then 5 years in San Francisco, where i worked up to being an engneer/producer. Moved to Canada with a platinum album at the tender age of 27, to start at the bottom again in post.
15 years later, moved to LA with a ton if mix credits, to end up taking a few steps back. Mixing sfx and reality tv.

4 years later, back full-time in the dialog chair, where i left off. Mixing major network scripted shows and MOW's.

So, 25 years to get where I'm at. But then, i love my job. And i REALLY wanted it.
And I'm still not where i want to be. But it beats working for a living.

So, please, tell us how bad you REALLY want to work in post.

[matskull]

Originally Posted by Henchman

So, after only 4 years, you gave up when it got a little tough.

I just don't quite understand how someone can live without money, sorry but that's a concept I really don't get.
How was I supose to pay a rent, pay for my car and gas, pay for food without money?

On top of that I didn't feel like the studio I worked at was right for me for all sort of reasons. That's why I left. Now after 2 years of not working in this industry I miss it, I worked on some projects at home and it was awesome but it's not the same as working for a real studio.

I really want to work in the audio, post production or recording, but I want to be able to pay the rent, that's it...

[charles maynes]

it can be as hard as Mark said- he really didnt sugar coat anything. If you were 18 years and wanted to do film sound, I would say this- Go to USC. Be the top of your class- and be there as close to 24/7 as is possible doing every sound job you can. Work REALLY hard at it- swallow ALL of your pride, and soak up as much knowledge from your instructors and advanced students that you can. After you graduate, you WILL likely be hired to an entry level job doing sound- however you will thn need to figure out how to pay off the loans you took to go to USC.

That however doesnt sound like your situation-

for an adult, I would say that you should get a job which will allow you to live, and to do free work via Mandy or Craigslist to get you into the work- you will need to work hard, but once you establish a resume you can at least show your work to sound houses and studios.

there are no guarantees- and there is little in the way of staff positions in most film and TV work- you might fair better in advertising, but thats pretty hard to break into as well....

in the end, if it REALLY is what you love to do, you will find a way to make the sacrifices to do it- there may be a decent reward in the longrun, but overnight success in Hollywood usually comes after at least 10 years of very hard work.

[matskull]

So it seems like it was really unusual to have a steady job in a studio like I did...

It seems like it's not somethings that happen often from what you guys are saying.
Everybody do audio at home those days, I don't really feel like that's the right thing to do, I might be wrong though.

[charles maynes]

for film and TV work it is very common for the editorial to be done at home...

[matskull]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

for film and TV work it is very common for the editorial to be done at home...

Yeah that's true I remember some people worked from home and then brang the sessions to the studio but those people were already established.

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

So the question is, why someone (producer, supervisor, director, you name it) decided to hire this or that person to do such a work. Sometimes it is really hard to find the right answer... Talent, ability, experience, relationships... especially the last one, I think...


Kuba

[Holyportstudios]

....

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by Holyportstudios

Hey took me 21 years to get to the top. Now I'm working on top Hollywood features for all the major studios. Hard work pays off and you can realise your dreams. Have faith and keep on going . We started with 1 studio and now have 4 don't give up on a dream. Get your name and face out there, contacts are a major part of getting on. Good luck

And your name and face is.....?

[Holyportstudios]

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[Holyportstudios]

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[soundguydave]

Originally Posted by Holyportstudios

Hey took me 21 years to get to the top. Now I'm working on top Hollywood features for all the major studios. Hard work pays off and you can realise your dreams. Have faith and keep on going . We started with 1 studio and now have 4 don't give up on a dream. Get your name and face out there, contacts are a major part of getting on. Good luck

I think it's tough for anyone outside of Montreal to comment on his particular situation. LA, NY, Chicago, Canada all are vastly different in the opportunities available.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by Holyportstudios

But would love to work in the US you guys have amazing studios out there.

I think a name and face might help in that endeavor.... also guild membership (local 700) if you plan on working on the top projects.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by soundguydave

I think it's tough for anyone outside of Montreal to comment on his particular situation. LA, NY, Chicago, Canada all are vastly different in the opportunities available.

Montreal IS Canada. And actualy has a better post scene than Vancouver becasue of the amount of governement funding they get for Quebec filmboard stuff.

[matskull]

Thanks guys for all the good words.
I realize I'll have to start over again with my researches for a job and it will take some time to get some work again.
At the time I was at the right place at the right time when I got my job, I got some good experience there so that's a good start, it might be easier this time, I hope.

I think I will start to try to get some work that I can do at night or during the weekend after my day job, that way I'll build more experience but I'll still be able to pay the rent.
After some time hopefully I'll be able to make a good living out of it... who knows.

I'll try to use my contacts as much as possible even though I don't have a lot outside the studio I worked at.

[stuartprovine]

26 too old to start? Hmm. I moved here when I was 24. Not much difference there. I say go for it if it's what you want. Be ready for pain though. Not easy out there. Good luck!

S.

[stuartprovine]

Originally Posted by Holyportstudios

Hey took me 21 years to get to the top. Now I'm working on top Hollywood features for all the major studios. Hard work pays off and you can realise your dreams. Have faith and keep on going . We started with 1 studio and now have 4 don't give up on a dream. Get your name and face out there, contacts are a major part of getting on. Good luck

What top Hollywood features would these be, if you don't mind me asking? You're a sound designer? Would like to familiarize myself with your work.

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Montreal IS Canada. And actually has a better post scene than Vancouver because of the amount of government funding they get for Quebec filmboard stuff.

! I'd find that insulting... if it weren't true. I know more than a few folks from Ottawa who are willing to pay two sets of taxes to have an "address" in Montreal, so they can work over there for tax credits (we're about 2 hours from there if you don't know Canadian Geography)

To the OP...
"I want to do what I like 8 hours a day, but I don't want to wonder if I'll be able to pay the bills every month..."

If this is TRULY the case, then don't get back into post... We have a word for 8 hour days ... "Vacation". You will work insane hours and will never know if it will last. I've simply come to accept this, and I'm much happier.

[soundguydave]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Montreal IS Canada. And actualy has a better post scene than Vancouver becasue of the amount of governement funding they get for Quebec filmboard stuff.

Thank you. I do realize that though, and I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my post. Point was some one from LA has a different perspective then someone from montreal when it comes to the future of post audio.

[Steven1145]

To the OP: Yes, some people can make a very decent living by working in post. No, it doesn't happen overnight. More like over-a-couple-of-decades. Decades during which, like most, if you really intend on working only 8 hours per day you will get nowhere.
13 years ago I made a choice, which was to set up my own business. I managed to keep going as a freelancer during all that time, and was lucky I could because I was only able to start paying myself a regular (ie. monthly) salary with the studio in 2006. Yes that's 8 years on... Obviously, and as stated before, it was my choice to decide to have the studio evolve first and foremost, and sacrifice the salary I was charging my clients to buy gear and keep the business afloat.
A career, just like a studio, takes years to build. It's built with little building blocks called "client's trust" and "painful experiences". You could declare yourself the best mixer in the world, it certainly does not mean people will rush to you with work, and it certainly will not be true for years (if one could even define the notion of "best" mixer). If your only motivation for this job is a good pay, and 8 hour days doing something cool, then I'm very sorry to say that you are not cut out for this job.
If you cant get across your love of audio/film/jobs-well-done to the person who might be hiring you, it's going to be a steep hill to climb. I'm sure that the internet makes your words come out in a different light, so I'll leave you the benefit of doubt, and imagine that you could actually convince a would-be employer of your worth.

Good luck to you. But maybe do consider keeping your steady job with benefits

[dr.sound]

Steven,
What a GREAT POST! Excellent!!

Originally Posted by Steven1145

To the OP: Yes, some people can make a very decent living by working in post. No, it doesn't happen overnight. More like over-a-couple-of-decades. Decades during which, like most, if you really intend on working only 8 hours per day you will get nowhere.
13 years ago I made a choice, which was to set up my own business. I managed to keep going as a freelancer during all that time, and was lucky I could because I was only able to start paying myself a regular (ie. monthly) salary with the studio in 2006. Yes that's 8 years on... Obviously, and as stated before, it was my choice to decide to have the studio evolve first and foremost, and sacrifice the salary I was charging my clients to buy gear and keep the business afloat.
A career, just like a studio, takes years to build. It's built with little building blocks called "client's trust" and "painful experiences". You could declare yourself the best mixer in the world, it certainly does not mean people will rush to you with work, and it certainly will not be true for years (if one could even define the notion of "best" mixer). If your only motivation for this job is a good pay, and 8 hour days doing something cool, then I'm very sorry to say that you are not cut out for this job.
If you cant get across your love of audio/film/jobs-well-done to the person who might be hiring you, it's going to be a steep hill to climb. I'm sure that the internet makes your words come out in a different light, so I'll leave you the benefit of doubt, and imagine that you could actually convince a would-be employer of your worth.

Good luck to you. But maybe do consider keeping your steady job with benefits

[matskull]

Originally Posted by Steven1145

To the OP: Yes, some people can make a very decent living by working in post. No, it doesn't happen overnight. More like over-a-couple-of-decades. Decades during which, like most, if you really intend on working only 8 hours per day you will get nowhere.
13 years ago I made a choice, which was to set up my own business. I managed to keep going as a freelancer during all that time, and was lucky I could because I was only able to start paying myself a regular (ie. monthly) salary with the studio in 2006. Yes that's 8 years on... Obviously, and as stated before, it was my choice to decide to have the studio evolve first and foremost, and sacrifice the salary I was charging my clients to buy gear and keep the business afloat.
A career, just like a studio, takes years to build. It's built with little building blocks called "client's trust" and "painful experiences". You could declare yourself the best mixer in the world, it certainly does not mean people will rush to you with work, and it certainly will not be true for years (if one could even define the notion of "best" mixer). If your only motivation for this job is a good pay, and 8 hour days doing something cool, then I'm very sorry to say that you are not cut out for this job.
If you cant get across your love of audio/film/jobs-well-done to the person who might be hiring you, it's going to be a steep hill to climb. I'm sure that the internet makes your words come out in a different light, so I'll leave you the benefit of doubt, and imagine that you could actually convince a would-be employer of your worth.

Good luck to you. But maybe do consider keeping your steady job with benefits

I'm sorry I haven't been clear about the 8 hours a day thing.
I didn't mean I don't want to work more than 8 hours a day, not at all.
All I meant was that I wish I could work as much as I used to before the economy went down.
When that happended, I started to work sometimes only 4 hours a week! That really sucked believe me.
When I was working full time of course I wasn't always working exactly 8 hours a day, it usually was between 7 and 12 hours a day depending on the season.

I understand it's not an easy business, I've been in it for 4 years so even though it's not that much, I now understand how it is.

The only thing that bugs me right now is that I can't really sell myself as a sound designer because I only did some sound design for 2-3 months before it all went down.
On top of that, what really attracted me at the time was the mix, I did assist some mixers but not as much as I would've like to because there were already 2 other mix assistant where I worked. I pushed to do more mix assisting but there wasn't enough work for me to do it full time so they gave me some sound design job to do, which was an upgrade for me at least.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by matskull

On top of that, what really attracted me at the time was the mix, I did assist some mixers but not as much as I would've like to because there were already 2 other mix assistant where I worked. I pushed to do more mix assisting but there wasn't enough work for me to do it full time so they gave me some sound design job to do, which was an upgrade for me at least.

Again, this is a career that in most cases takes years to develop.
You don't just walk in and start halfway up the ladder, and then 2 years in, you're mixing.

Question is, can you afford to wrk for minimum or a bit more, to build your career for a few years? Are you willing to make sacrifices that mean scaling back your lifestyle?