Career advice - all opinions welcome

[daveconn]

Hi there, basically I'm in need of some advice.

I'm a music production/composition graduate with the ambition to one day become a successful composer or sound designer. Currently I'm working for a small production company as the all round sound/music guy. I do location sound, post production, sound design and the scores for their videos. The problem is that the company is extremely small so I'm looking to try to further my career but have hit a stumbling block.

At the moment I also work freelance on short films in London (I live in Manchester UK) doing production sound and more recently I'm getting more composition gigs. I'm now thinking that making the move to London should be next for me, but Ive narrowed my career choices down to two things...

1. Do a masters in sound design/composition/post sound - as my degree was in music production I don't feel qualified enough yet to work so intensely on big video/film projects, I also feel that this could be the deciding factor in getting more sound design gigs, as il have much more knowledge of this field.

2. Purchase a production sound rig and just try to work up the ladder - I feel pretty confident that with better equipment and using the contacts I have, I won't be short of work as a recordist...but is it common for people to make the transition from recordist to post sound/sound designer? My thinking with this is that work will be more frequent, albeit not exactly not what I want to do as a career.

I'm fresh out of uni, and I'm only 21, so forgive me if I sound naive at all. I just don't want to spent up to £10,000 without giving this a good think.

Thanks for reading.

[Dallas Taylor]

There was a similar discussion on Masters Degree vs Work about a month ago. Check it out here: University of Edinburgh MSc in Sound Design - anyone know about it??

[Uncle Bob]

Don't do it!!!!

Quit now!!!

Forget about it!!!

You're asking for nothing but trouble, frustration and heartache!!!

Become a chef or an accountant!!!

[Patodruida]

I will say this exclusively from my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt:

I'd say you are young enough that you can take some risks and you probably don't have any extra mouths to feed so you can afford to take an entry-level, low-pay job (heck, even an internship) in a real studio and learn by watching over the shoulder of a pro.

If you have supportive parents (let me fix that: supportive parents who CAN pay for your tuition) then I see nothing wrong in doing a Masters Degree. If you have to pay it on your own... wait until you are can afford to pay for it without going into debt for 30 years).

If you decide to do your own thing, don't splash out and buy everything at once.
One thing that has always worked for me is never to buy a piece of gear until:

1) I know as a fact that it will be used in a specific project
2)I know that it will pay for itself within the next 3-6 months.
3) I will be using it extensively (which means, at least once a week).

Otherwise, renting it for a day or two will be more cost-effective, even in the long run.

I will not fully echo Uncle Bob's sentiment but there's wisdom to his words: Do become proficient in something else just in case.

I am/was in a moderately successful band but, once I got married and had a child, I realised there was no way I could support them with the meagre income of an independent musician.

Mind you, before that I was also a partner in a video and audio post-production house that survived doing jingles and TV spots (you have to understand that the cinema industry is all but dead in my country) but the operating costs were huge and, following a drought of work after 9/11 (many international companies froze all non-essential projects in Mexico for almost 6 months) we had to close and were forced to sell all our equipment just to remain debt-free.

Fortunately, I had studies and training that allowed me to work as an independent consultant in a completely different industry (market research) and over the years have become not only able to support my family but also to fund my ever-growing gear-sluttiness.

Now, I am not complaining about my life. I am actually quite happy with what I have and what I've achieved over the years. And I feel I am still young enough to give it another go without feeling ridiculous.

Hopefully, your career will be more successful than mine was at the time and you will never need to execute "Plan B" but, should it chance that things go a little bit south... you'll be glad you learned a way to make a living that doesn't involve saying "you want some chips with that?".

There, my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Patodruida

I will not fully echo Uncle Bob's sentiment but there's wisdom to his words: Do become proficient in something else just in case.

Man, a guy can't even make a joke anymore....

[Patodruida]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Man, a guy can't even make a joke anymore....

I got the joke. Come on! no sane person would seriously suggest someone else to become an accountant.
I only used it (clumsily, I guess) as a stepping stone for the point I was trying to make.

[daveconn]

Originally Posted by Patodruida

I will say this exclusively from my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt:

I'd say you are young enough that you can take some risks and you probably don't have any extra mouths to feed so you can afford to take an entry-level, low-pay job (heck, even an internship) in a real studio and learn by watching over the shoulder of a pro.

If you have supportive parents (let me fix that: supportive parents who CAN pay for your tuition) then I see nothing wrong in doing a Masters Degree. If you have to pay it on your own... wait until you are can afford to pay for it without going into debt for 30 years).

If you decide to do your own thing, don't splash out and buy everything at once.
One thing that has always worked for me is never to buy a piece of gear until:

1) I know as a fact that it will be used in a specific project
2)I know that it will pay for itself within the next 3-6 months.
3) I will be using it extensively (which means, at least once a week).

Otherwise, renting it for a day or two will be more cost-effective, even in the long run.

I will not fully echo Uncle Bob's sentiment but there's wisdom to his words: Do become proficient in something else just in case.

I am/was in a moderately successful band but, once I got married and had a child, I realised there was no way I could support them with the meagre income of an independent musician.

Mind you, before that I was also a partner in a video and audio post-production house that survived doing jingles and TV spots (you have to understand that the cinema industry is all but dead in my country) but the operating costs were huge and, following a drought of work after 9/11 (many international companies froze all non-essential projects in Mexico for almost 6 months) we had to close and were forced to sell all our equipment just to remain debt-free.

Fortunately, I had studies and training that allowed me to work as an independent consultant in a completely different industry (market research) and over the years have become not only able to support my family but also to fund my ever-growing gear-sluttiness.

Now, I am not complaining about my life. I am actually quite happy with what I have and what I've achieved over the years. And I feel I am still young enough to give it another go without feeling ridiculous.

Hopefully, your career will be more successful than mine was at the time and you will never need to execute "Plan B" but, should it chance that things go a little bit south... you'll be glad you learned a way to make a living that doesn't involve saying "you want some chips with that?".

There, my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

Thanks for your advice, your right in that at the moment I'm in a financial position where I can afford to take some risks, it just seems incredibly difficult to find intern work in post sound but easier to find work as a sound recordist.

If theres anyone in audio post out there, does starting out as a recordist and working towards sound design sound like a realistic career move from your experience? My thinking in pushing myself as a sound recordist would mean meeting more people in the industry thus increasing my chances of gaining employment. Or (as they are very different professions) should I just be focussing on trying to develop my skills in post sound through studying a masters and working on producing a high quality showreel to impress potential employers?

@unclebob - I struggle to even chop an onion, ah well... I guess I'm screwed

[Thomas W. Bethe]

If I had a son or daughter and they wanted to go into audio production today I would suggest they not even think about it.

Audio has been my life since I was in Junior High School. I love music and sound and I have made a career out of doing what I love. It never seemed like work since it was not only my vocation but my avocation as well. I always made a good living doing it and thought that I always would. Unfortunately the world changed and that reality is no longer valid..

Today is nothing like when I started into the audio business. There are too many people trying to be audio, post or mastering engineers and no place for them to work.

Today there are far less people and companies who need the services of a full time audio engineer yet recording schools and colleges turn out literally thousands of students with a degrees in audio. When these graduates try and find permanent employment they find that the jobs they are seeking are non-existent. They then can make one of two decisions - 1) to start their own studio or 2) to get into some allied field or fall back on what "else" they can do.

My mentor had an 8 room recording studio that was literally booked every day from 8 am to .... and on weekends. Today he is all about video and his 8 rooms sit empty and unused for large periods of time. His staff went from 11 to 8 and the future looks somewhat iffy.

Why did this happen??? - because this is a DIY world and everyone who thinks they need one has some type of recording studio in their house or as part of their business. Recording budgets have been lowered and lowered again. Too many people doing recording, mixing, post and mastering and less and less people who need their services. This is a real prescription for disaster and it has become a reality.

I don't in any way want to rain on your parade but you have to go into this with your eyes wide open and realize that the world I and many others here on this board knew is no longer the world you will be getting into.

I really feel sorry for young people today because I know what they are going through and I know that they have as much passion for audio as I had but no way to make a decent living doing it.

I wish you the best of luck thumbsup but PLEASE go into this with your eyes wide open and understand that what you are planning may not produce the results you think they will.

Again BEST OF LUCK!!!!thumbsup

[robcap]

If theres anyone in audio post out there, does starting out as a recordist and working towards sound design sound like a realistic career move from your experience? My thinking in pushing myself as a sound recordist would mean meeting more people in the industry thus increasing my chances of gaining employment.

Some of us started working at broadcasters where we learned a variety of skills and this was a requirement of the job and viewed as necessary in the development of one's audio skills. I did location for series, EFP, news, studio shoots, remote broadcasts and also post. Had to learn all of the areas. Everything is different now but doing location recording could get you some post work on smaller projects in my opinion. Knowing how to do location and post can benefit you in many technical ways as well. While I primarily do post, some long time clients ask me to do their location work as well if I have the time.

As expressed above, there are far too many people graduating and not enough work out there. What has worked for me is now I have competencies in Mobile remotes (network sports broadcasts here in North America) as well as doing post on TV series. Business is cyclical (although not really in the sports world) and I am able to supplement my slow periods by doing other types of audio work where my competencies allow.

Since you seem to be looking at more than 1 field of entry into audio, I would keep that in mind as something that may assist you in the future, and depending on whom you work for/with, help you gain entry into post.

Hope this helps and best of luck,

Roberto

[jmattchan]

in my experience, production and post production are pretty much two different worlds, you need different connections and networks to get the jobs. so i've never heard of a production mixer becoming a post-mixer.

i've heard of some people who record sound effects occasionally going out to do a location shoot. but most location mixers i've met don't ever intend to get into post production. there's no direct path as far as i can tell.

also, i should mention that the few guys i went to school here in toronto with who wound up in location sound are all making close to or over 100K a year in revenue. they have a lot of equipment costs of course, but that is much more than you'll make as a young post-mixer, at least around these parts.

i've only been doing this for about 9 years and i often give the same advice as others are giving here but if you really want to do composing or post, take the dive now while you're young and try to get in as an intern or assistant somewhere. the crucial key is to find someone who is willing to mentor you instead of exploit you. eat/sleep/breath it by doing it and maybe you'll get lucky. even if you find a good job, it will still be difficult and bleak and moving up mostly has to do with your clients skills as well as being in the right place with the right people at the right time. everyone seems to have their own unique story about how they got to where they are. a masters and a bunch of gear doesn't mean a thing. and if it doesn't work out, you are 21 now and can change career paths later.

[dualflip]

Ok ill give you my opinions, its a great job if you make it, but very unreliable, you might win the grammy one day, and unemployed the day after you won it, as someone said do be prepared to face a lot of frustration. If you are planning on getting married, having kids, and you want stability, there are by far better career choices than freelancing in the audio world.

To be honest i wouldnt spend another dime on music or audio "education", i also went to school and finished a major, and eventhough i do learned some stuff, the truth is that most of what i learned i learned it before and after i went to school.

The good news is that the movie/postproduction industry is a lot more reliable and profitable than the music industry (in general, although not a law), in which case then your odds are a lot better.

Also dont put your hopes on gear, gear wont get you were you want unless its a lot of gear we are talking about, or a big studio, to be honest 90% of the people i know who has big studios are rich kids who somehow convinced their parents to lend them some of the family wealth, but even then, its not a guarantee that it will get you there, the remaining 10% are guys who either slowly saved and bought gear until they built their studio, big companies, or someone who got an investor, or people who do other stuff for a living but wanted a studio...

Its not easy getting a studio on your own, because to do that, you have to be making a good living out of this, otherwise whats the point?, ok yeah doing it out of pure passion, but youll soon realize that if it doesnt pays the bills, passion dies really fast.

Dont want to get you discouraged, but please consider that its not easy, sometimes i think about the decission i took of becoming an audio engineer, and to be honest there are times when i regret it, and there are times i dont, however if i just took a "normal" job, my life would have been a lot easier now.

Best of luck!

[daveconn]

thanks for all the advice guys, i've definitely taken all of it on board and has helped to firmly place things into perspective for me. i realise i've got a steep ladder to climb but hey, that makes life much more exciting!

best of luck to you all in doing what you do.

[daveconn]

Just as a little update to this post I made a year later.

I decided to freelance in London (I'm from Manchester) on a lot of unpaid gigs, short films, scores for stuff..anything I could possibly get my hands on. Slept on friends couches and floors, was probably the toughest year of my life but it ended it paying off. I ended up getting paid freelance work for a music and sound company and through a great deal of persistance and hard work I'm now working in house for them full time as their lead composer, working on some really nice high end stuff for global brands.

Just wanted to share my story as many of you guys told me to give up. I honestly think with the right work ethic and belief (and maybe a pinch of luck), there is plenty of work out there. My advice to graduates is be prepared to work harder, better and more efficiently than 90% of your competition and you'll be noticed and find work.

[philper]

Originally Posted by jmattchan

in my experience, production and post production are pretty much two different worlds, you need different connections and networks to get the jobs. so i've never heard of a production mixer becoming a post-mixer.

i've heard of some people who record sound effects occasionally going out to do a location shoot. but most location mixers i've met don't ever intend to get into post production. there's no direct path as far as i can tell.

Here I am, proving you wrong!
IMDB: Philip Perkins - IMDb

People doing both production and post, or going from production to post or vice versa is more common than you think, and becoming more common all the time!

phil p

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by daveconn

Just as a little update to this post I made a year later.

I decided to freelance in London (I'm from Manchester) on a lot of unpaid gigs, short films, scores for stuff..anything I could possibly get my hands on. Slept on friends couches and floors, was probably the toughest year of my life but it ended it paying off. I ended up getting paid freelance work for a music and sound company and through a great deal of persistance and hard work I'm now working in house for them full time as their lead composer, working on some really nice high end stuff for global brands.

Just wanted to share my story as many of you guys told me to give up. I honestly think with the right work ethic and belief (and maybe a pinch of luck), there is plenty of work out there. My advice to graduates is be prepared to work harder, better and more efficiently than 90% of your competition and you'll be noticed and find work.

Congrats!!! you beat the odds.

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by daveconn

I'm now working in house for them full time as their lead composer, working on some really nice high end stuff for global brands.

Well done! In my experience, good luck seems to happen a lot more often with hard work and persistence. Keep at it, and never stop learning. After you master a skill, take on a new one.
Also, don't be surprised if at some point you have dips in the amount of work you have. After 20 some odd years of freelancing, I still have moments where I think I may have to go back to waiting tables! Just keep at it, and work always seems to materialize.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by PoxyMusic

After 20 some odd years of freelancing, I still have moments where I think I may have to go back to waiting tables!

Thats what scares the hell out of me, although its like you said, so far so good!

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by dualflip

Thats what scares the hell out of me, although its like you said, so far so good!

Actually, I haven't seriously considered that idea in like 15 years. (I still have waiter nightmares sometimes though) It's just that sometimes there are lulls in work, with nothing on the horizon...but something always comes up.