Taylor Swift's Vocal

[oceantracks]

Oh I love her records. They are top notch and I think she sounds great....on the records though, not live!

TH

[ggegan]

You know, I have often seen this work the other way around, where a performer with immense personal charisma in a live performance just can't seem to duplicate the magic in the studio.

[steveschizoid]

To the OP; practice, practice, practice. When you go to record, you'll like the process and result a lot better if you don't have to do 500 takes with a word comped and autotuned from each.

And in general, don't fix it unless it's broken - or you actually come up with a way to use autotune as an effect that no one has heard yet.

With my own clients, I do end up fixing their pitch, because, if they can't hear it when they're off to the extent that it makes me cringe, it has to be done, and they're never gonig to be able to sing it better.

If i don't fix it, people might think it sucks because it was recorded in my studio. Etch-A-Sketch is entirely correct when he said that most people can hear it when the pitch is egregiously wrong, though they may not be able to point out what makes them dislike the sound.

Then there's the matter that I have to listen to it repeatedly while I mix it.

Again though, especially if you have a decent ear for pitch, I believe it's important to not go looking for a problem - you should readily hear it if there is one.

I don't buy that the autotune craze is spoiling the world for great natural singing.

People can sing on pitch without autotune, believe it or not.

[audibell]

Originally Posted by nathanlee0921

I guess it's because of the words she's singing. There was a couple of words where there was more pitch modulation, such as "On" from the phrase, "On the balcony in summer air". You can't really say/sing the word "On" without any modulation or else it'll sound weird.

I'm new to recording and editing vocals, so I don't know what is exceptionable and what's not. Can anyone (with more experience) offer me an opinion on vocal editing. Does the vocal have to be dead on all the time? On some particular words, I can't nail the pitch dead on, but have to slide up to it (words like "world" because it's "w-orld"). I've seen this in the vocal of Shantel Nichole Grace and Tim McGraw.

Hi, I think you're asking about vowel modification (else it'll sound weird) and vibrato (more pitch modulation). A straight tone, a flat, literally monotonous sound stream is actually quite hard to do intentionally because most people have a natural tendency to wobble on and off pitch; opera singers learn how to control both the pulse and the deviation from the flat line when they develop their vibrato.
That "it just sounds wrong" that people can hear but not pinpoint why, is actually a learned set of intervals which we just pick up as children; the twelve tones of our scale just sound "right" to us and most people can hear when the interval is off, especially when two or more others are "on" pitch.
So, what to do? Bringing back music education into our schools would help a lot but if a singer is consistently frustrated by an inability to do what she hears in her head, then a visit to an old fashioned vocal teacher will work wonders.

To stay on pitch, the vowels have to be executed with some precision. "On the balcony in summer air" when vowelised would come out something like this: Aw-n thah Bah-lc-aw-knee ee-n ps-ah-meh ay-r. It sounds exagerated at first but it sounds great from 150 feet away; with practice, it sounds good from 6 inches away, too. What's happening is the vowels are carrying the throat sound; the consonants only form the very necessary bridges between each vowel. The ee ay ah oh oo sounds can be modified as they end and then elide into the next vowel but the bulk of the forced air will be shaped by the mouth positions which create these vowels. Having the lip form a "p" in front of sss-ummer is 16th Century de-essing control. Try it. You shouldn't hear per-summer or SSSSSSummer either.

Breath control is the next area that can help to prevent going flat/running out of air/wobbling at the end of a phrase. Just like exercising, warming up for five minutes before the first take is really helpful when your instrument is inside your body. Sliding up to the correct pitch has always been acceptable, it's called portamento or "leaning"/"sliding" into the next note before finally reaching it, but you actually have to get there, otherwise it's just another wrong note. Sinatra was a master at this as was Pavarotti. Some, of course, think of it as poor technique or cheap emotionalism (drunken renditions of Danny Boy) but others call that art. Using pitch correction has to be another software skill that you learn along the way, like Noise Correction. Just enough to preserve the illusion - use too much and it's obvious.
Hope this helps,
WalterT

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by ggegan

You know, I have often seen this work the other way around, where a performer with immense personal charisma in a live performance just can't seem to duplicate the magic in the studio.

+1000!!!!!

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by audibell

Hi, I think you're asking about vowel modification (else it'll sound weird) and vibrato (more pitch modulation). A straight tone, a flat, literally monotonous sound stream is actually quite hard to do intentionally because most people have a natural tendency to wobble on and off pitch; opera singers learn how to control both the pulse and the deviation from the flat line when they develop their vibrato.
That "it just sounds wrong" that people can hear but not pinpoint why, is actually a learned set of intervals which we just pick up as children; the twelve tones of our scale just sound "right" to us and most people can hear when the interval is off, especially when two or more others are "on" pitch.
So, what to do? Bringing back music education into our schools would help a lot but if a singer is consistently frustrated by an inability to do what she hears in her head, then a visit to an old fashioned vocal teacher will work wonders.

To stay on pitch, the vowels have to be executed with some precision. "On the balcony in summer air" when vowelised would come out something like this: Aw-n thah Bah-lc-aw-knee ee-n ps-ah-meh ay-r. It sounds exagerated at first but it sounds great from 150 feet away; with practice, it sounds good from 6 inches away, too. What's happening is the vowels are carrying the throat sound; the consonants only form the very necessary bridges between each vowel. The ee ay ah oh oo sounds can be modified as they end and then elide into the next vowel but the bulk of the forced air will be shaped by the mouth positions which create these vowels. Having the lip form a "p" in front of sss-ummer is 16th Century de-essing control. Try it. You shouldn't hear per-summer or SSSSSSummer either.

Breath control is the next area that can help to prevent going flat/running out of air/wobbling at the end of a phrase. Just like exercising, warming up for five minutes before the first take is really helpful when your instrument is inside your body. Sliding up to the correct pitch has always been acceptable, it's called portamento or "leaning"/"sliding" into the next note before finally reaching it, but you actually have to get there, otherwise it's just another wrong note. Sinatra was a master at this as was Pavarotti. Some, of course, think of it as poor technique or cheap emotionalism (drunken renditions of Danny Boy) but others call that art. Using pitch correction has to be another software skill that you learn along the way, like Noise Correction. Just enough to preserve the illusion - use too much and it's obvious.
Hope this helps,
WalterT

Great post Walter!!

[sycomidgit]

Originally Posted by ggegan

You know, I have often seen this work the other way around, where a performer with immense personal charisma in a live performance just can't seem to duplicate the magic in the studio.

Performing live is a completely different energy, environment, everything compared to the studio. It feels a lot easier to really get into it on stage than in a booth, it could be part of it. Plus, if a band is any good they always sound better live.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

one thing I've noticed from recording and mixing live concerts... the pitch of an artist/singer is just as bad on stage, but the ambience of the hall/stadium masks it just like how adding TONS of verb and tape slap mask it on studio albums.

When you hear "just the stage mics" from a live performance it sounds dramatically worse than the "audience" mics. Every little fluctuation in pitch is right there in the hand held mic. But in the audience mics it is smeared by reflections and reverberation so you can't distinguish it.

That, more often than not, is why some bands/artists sound great live but "lose it" when they come into the studio. They are the same, but the "soft-touch lense" that the venue adds to their pitch is gone and they are essentially "naked" in the speakers in the control room for the first time and finally hear what they really sound like.

[nathanlee0921]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

one thing I've noticed from recording and mixing live concerts... the pitch of an artist/singer is just as bad on stage, but the ambience of the hall/stadium masks it just like how adding TONS of verb and tape slap mask it on studio albums.

When you hear "just the stage mics" from a live performance it sounds dramatically worse than the "audience" mics. Every little fluctuation in pitch is right there in the hand held mic. But in the audience mics it is smeared by reflections and reverberation so you can't distinguish it.

That, more often than not, is why some bands/artists sound great live but "lose it" when they come into the studio. They are the same, but the "soft-touch lense" that the venue adds to their pitch is gone and they are essentially "naked" in the speakers in the control room for the first time and finally hear what they really sound like.

This was really helpful, thank you for posting it. So, you when there's more reverb, the off pitch is less noticeable?

What would you consider to be off pitch? I mean, I heard some artist are off like 3 whole notes (I find this impossible because if you play the melody on the keyboard and try to match each note there's no way you can be off like that much. Maybe a whole note at most).

When I check my pitch in Auto-Tune, I'm always within the note, but sometime not dead on the center line. If I'm about half a semi-tone off now and then, can I mask it with reverb because I hate using Auto-Tune and Melodyne?

[nathanlee0921]

Originally Posted by audibell

Hi, I think you're asking about vowel modification (else it'll sound weird) and vibrato (more pitch modulation). A straight tone, a flat, literally monotonous sound stream is actually quite hard to do intentionally because most people have a natural tendency to wobble on and off pitch; opera singers learn how to control both the pulse and the deviation from the flat line when they develop their vibrato.
That "it just sounds wrong" that people can hear but not pinpoint why, is actually a learned set of intervals which we just pick up as children; the twelve tones of our scale just sound "right" to us and most people can hear when the interval is off, especially when two or more others are "on" pitch.
So, what to do? Bringing back music education into our schools would help a lot but if a singer is consistently frustrated by an inability to do what she hears in her head, then a visit to an old fashioned vocal teacher will work wonders.

To stay on pitch, the vowels have to be executed with some precision. "On the balcony in summer air" when vowelised would come out something like this: Aw-n thah Bah-lc-aw-knee ee-n ps-ah-meh ay-r. It sounds exagerated at first but it sounds great from 150 feet away; with practice, it sounds good from 6 inches away, too. What's happening is the vowels are carrying the throat sound; the consonants only form the very necessary bridges between each vowel. The ee ay ah oh oo sounds can be modified as they end and then elide into the next vowel but the bulk of the forced air will be shaped by the mouth positions which create these vowels. Having the lip form a "p" in front of sss-ummer is 16th Century de-essing control. Try it. You shouldn't hear per-summer or SSSSSSummer either.

Breath control is the next area that can help to prevent going flat/running out of air/wobbling at the end of a phrase. Just like exercising, warming up for five minutes before the first take is really helpful when your instrument is inside your body. Sliding up to the correct pitch has always been acceptable, it's called portamento or "leaning"/"sliding" into the next note before finally reaching it, but you actually have to get there, otherwise it's just another wrong note. Sinatra was a master at this as was Pavarotti. Some, of course, think of it as poor technique or cheap emotionalism (drunken renditions of Danny Boy) but others call that art. Using pitch correction has to be another software skill that you learn along the way, like Noise Correction. Just enough to preserve the illusion - use too much and it's obvious.
Hope this helps,
WalterT

You rock Walter! Thank you for the explanation.

You said, "A straight tone, a flat, literally monotonous sound stream is actually quite hard to do intentionally because most people have a natural tendency to wobble on and off pitch"

There are some words that I can sing with a straight tone naturally, but there are words that just can't be done. I mean, if I sing a word and have to carry it for about a measure at the tempo of about 100BMP, then yeah, I can make it a straight tone, but not when it's an 8th note and I have to sing it quickly because that's too fast.

[nathanlee0921]

Originally Posted by steveschizoid

With my own clients, I do end up fixing their pitch, because, if they can't hear it when they're off to the extent that it makes me cringe, it has to be done, and they're never gonig to be able to sing it better.

How much off does it have to be to make you cringe? I'm usually on the note, but not dead center all the time. Almost always, I'm no more than a half a semi-tone off (sometime a semi-tone), but I don't want to use Auto-Tune to make it perfect because somehow it still sound a little unnatural to me especially when I already heard my vocal the way it is.

[audibell]

It depends on whether you wan to spend your time masking, covering up or whether you want to fix it. If you're measuring yourself a quarter tone off, you're not "on the note", and if it's a semitone, you're changing the key. The people that you heard about who were three whole notes off were actually in harmony if they were singing a third. If a whole interval is split into 100 "cents' then 10 cents sharp or flat is noticeable, even if it's brought "into line" before the note is finished. You don't really want to be fighting this with software and reverb, which injects it's own set of pitch problems.

The way to make your brain/muscles respond the way you intend is to practice the grand and small scales, for about an hour each morning. Get a tupperware bowl with a cloth in it and cover your mouth with the bowl while you belt into it, nobody will hear you in the next room.

Doh ray me fah so fah me ray doh. Then up a semitone. Doh ray me fah so fah me ray doh. Keep going until your reach your comfortable highest note on "so". Then start going down the scale. Once you've done that to death, start again, this time with the whole octave/grand scale. Doh ray me fah so lah tee doh, doh tee lah so fah me ray doh. Then up a semitone. You get it.

What you are doing is training your brain, ear and throat to make the appropriate intervals by repitition, so that eventually, you just can't sing 10 or 20 cents "off". If you get a friend to play each scale on a keyboard while you practice singing, and record it for later, you will find your pitch control improving.

No way 'round it, takes work to get better at something.
Good luck
WalterT

[Synæsthesiac]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

I'll take a passionate performance over perfect pitch any day.

Like Thom Yorke's lovely sharp ("I Will Sto........p") entry into the song Electioneering on OK Computer. Still one of my favorite vocal performances of all time.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by nathanlee0921

This was really helpful, thank you for posting it. So, you when there's more reverb, the off pitch is less noticeable?

What would you consider to be off pitch? I mean, I heard some artist are off like 3 whole notes (I find this impossible because if you play the melody on the keyboard and try to match each note there's no way you can be off like that much. Maybe a whole note at most).

When I check my pitch in Auto-Tune, I'm always within the note, but sometime not dead on the center line. If I'm about half a semi-tone off now and then, can I mask it with reverb because I hate using Auto-Tune and Melodyne?

Sorry it took me a bit to respond. I've been away from the web for a little bit.

What is deemed "noticeable" varies. Sometimes just 5 or 10 cents off can be noticeable, other times it's not. If you are singing one of the notes being played in a chord, in the same octave as the instrument is playing it, it is more noticeable. But if you are singing above a chord being played, it is slightly less noticeable. And if you are singing a tension against the chord (like a high D above a Cmaj or Cmaj7 chord) it is less noticeable.

Some people's pitch is better than others. I work with a producer who has prefect pitch. He can hear when a vocal is sharp or flat even by 2 or 3 cents. The average listener's hearing isn't that acute. But, people do comment on how good his vocal production sounds!! So, even if they can't tell the pitch is "dead on" they unconsciously hear that it somehow sounds better.

I record vocals completely dry now because of working with him. He NEVER records with any reverb or delay on the vocal tracks, no matter how much the singer begs for it. It has to be bone dry. Even with his perfect pitch, he says verb and delay make it harder for him to distinguish the singer's pitch. So, if you can get it to sound half decent when it is dry, it will sound pretty good when you mix it, add a little delay, verb, chorus, etc...

How to get your sense of pitch better? As Audibell describes, ear training! Sing scales. After that sing intervals and chords like Do, me, so, ti, do, ti so, me, do and Do, Fa, Ti, Me, La, Re, so, do, etc... then test yourself against a piano or guitar (make sure it is in tune first). play a note, then try to sing an interval above it, then check yourself. So play a note, call it Do. Then try to sing a maj 9th above it, a pefect 4th below it, etc. Pick a new note, do the same. And so on. Anyone here who has gone to music school and taken ear training classes can attest that it works. I had to take 2 years of it. Being a drummer I thought I would never be able to hear pitch and sight sing. And after 2 years I was sight singing modal pieces! So it really does work, you just have to do it every day, literally.

Also, when listening to songs, start out by trying to hear, sing and solfege the bass. Then do the same with any instrument riffs, or vocals, etc. Then try to figure out what the chords are and what inversion they are in, all by ear. Check yourself against an instrument if/when you have one handy.