Providing helpful audio post information to educational facilities

[Jfriah]

Just thought you'd all get a good chuckle from this like I did when I got my response back.

After dealing with a number of student productions (final year students) and some first-time directors/producers/editors' productions over the past year(s) I decided to contact the department head of the school to offer some information about some common findings. Things that the students/fresh grads were not aware of, apparently, but should be. And that we thought it would be a good idea to make sure it is being taught because, in the end, it will save time and money (and frustration) when they go on to do 'real life' projects.

Things like... creating EDLs ("what's an EDL?"), generating handles in OMFs, session start time (so things aren't coming in at 15 seconds in, or a random timecode, that kind of thing), creation of (and use of) sync-pops both head and tail, and my favourite--generating a timecode window burn ("what is a timecode burn?").

Response back was something to the effect of "your comments stirred a lively conversation, and will be taken into consideration in the future. Thank you."

Which made me sigh and go
Because it read to me like a fuuck

Can't wait till April when student productions come around again!

Jeff

[insomaniac]

This takes me back:

Grad Student: "So, I exported two OMFs for you, one with 1 frame handles and one with 0 frame handles. Which one would be better for you?"

Me:

The sheer number of times I had to go show the Avid kids (people who were studying to be editors, et al) how to properly output an OMF and a DV reference was mind boggling. Sometimes I'm really upset I spent so much money going to school...

[Sonsey@mac.com]

This actually reminds me of a story, from when I taught the Audio-post course at a local institution which prides itself on it's Media School...This was for Second Year students.

Me: "Now, why do we put bars and tone on tape?"
-insert crickets-
Me: "Anyone?"
-more crickets-
Me: (doing a Ben Stein impersonation)"Anyone?"
-student raises hand tentatively -
Me: "Yes..."
Student: "Because our video teacher told us we had to?"

Sometimes it's not that they aren't told these things, it's that they aren't actually taught WHY they should do them and WHY they're important!

[Jfriah]

That was the other thing with 'session start times' / where program appears. Half of them started their project at 'the hour' without room for bars and tones. When I explained, I got pretty much the same Bueller reaction, Howard...

Again

[mikevarela]

Sadly, same for audio school as well. It seems like there's a disconnect between real-world practices and what's being taught.

I know the school I went to had us learning different things every two weeks, as such it was more focused on diseminating the material in the course manual than going over real world work flows. Maybe it's because of the time constraints..?

In any case, it seemed that even the teachers hands were tied because they had to follow the course guidelines. And to make things worse, when we had a little time to kill, it was all about 'look at this trick in pro tools, or on this board' and less time on 'here's how to Dx edit properly, or set up you stem configs'

Everything I learned of value to me now came from interning at several places, which I might add - they promised they'd help me find... but didn't.

It's a turn and burn shop.

Related, there's government legislation on loans for this particular reason... schools promising a career in the growing music/post industry when it's anything but.

[rhumphries]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Response back was something to the effect of "your comments stirred a lively conversation, and will be taken into consideration in the future. Thank you."

Which made me sigh and go
Because it read to me like a fuuck

Can't wait till April when student productions come around again!

Jeff

I think that's a pretty good response. You got some people talking. Depending on who you got talking it might actually do some good. I'd follow up if I were you. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

-R

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by rhumphries

I think that's a pretty good response. You got some people talking. Depending on who you got talking it might actually do some good. I'd follow up if I were you. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

-R

Sorry, Richard; it is the 'experienced skeptic' in me that feels it was 'a different conversation'. Squeaky wheel usually gets the same old same old (or "can you TURN THAT DOWN?") has been my experience, unfortunately. I'd really hope I'm wrong going forward in this area. It would be nice to have new folks understanding the basics a little more often. It would also be nice for the sun to shine every day (just not too hard or too hot...).




Jeff

[charles maynes]

Seriously if you want to do the school and the students a favor- go to the instructor and say that professional expectations include 2 pops and tones, and omf should be made with handles and they should be prepared to have a drive of the students dailies also included on the turnover- it is an educational expectation becuase in the real world all those things ARE required.

If the school considers itself a professional facility it should embrace these things.

[Bill@AudioVision]

I get resumes and inquiries for internships all the time, and so far nobody has caught my attention. It's always the same babble.. ProTools expert, Signal Flow expert, all-the-hardware-and-software-on-the-planet expert.
It gets me thinking... "Sh*t, if they know so much now, what are they going to be like in 30 years? What could I possibly teach them?

Schools, for the most part, are businesses. If they don't have students, they don't have classes. It doesn't matter WHAT they teach, as long as there are students. And the tuition gets paid.

This industry is blessed with some incredibly talented people that I'm pretty sure learned 98% of their job skills by the mentor process in combination with a passion to experiment and learn from mistakes. Some of that may have occurred in a school of some sort, but not by reading a book and taking a test.
However, at least 98% of the recent grads who are looking to land that cool gig in the big city, working for Big Name Post House are in for a rude awakening. If you wanted a money making career, the medical industry would have been a much better choice.

It's that other 2% that I'd like to talk to. I don't care if you can't spell ProTooolz - Get me a problem solver that's great with clients any day. Knowing what button does what is the easy part, it's why you should push that one and not this one that's important.

It's forums like this that can, hopefully, fill in the gaps for a less than ideal educational system. And at the same time, encourage more dialog with these institutions to help them better prepare these students.
Sorry for the rant...

[ankely]

Bill,

You are dead on.

I taught at one of those skools. It was a hard thing to do.

We were there to coddle them, give them A grades, to pass them even if they missed 13 out of 15 classes. Strange place. Pretty unbearable work place. Misinformation in spades.

Mostly unqualified and inexperienced staff. Then again a lot of the "instructors" were former students.

And the teachers were always wrong, students, er... customers, were always right.

Those skools are not learning centers, they are edutainment centers.

I'm glad to see that there is legislation starting to go after these skools. They are diploma mills selling dreams to the delusional. Their "accreditation" always seems to come from like skools as opposed to proper school systems.

Maybe 2% of those kids were teachable. It was really sad.

Most of the funding were government grants for the kids. Basic reading and writing skills were a bonus, not a requirement. Just a pulse and funding.

And you would be surprised at how much cheating goes on for the certifications, such as Pro Tools, Adobe, Apple, etc.

Trust, me these skools don't want our help. They just want us to work for them and keep our mouths shut because they want our credibility.

I feel bad for the kids.

[Jfriah]

You know the old saying: those that can do, do. Those that cannot, teach.
?

Well when a former co-worker went to teach audio at a film school after working in post for awhile, I told him my new saying became: those that can do, do and get paid. Those that used to do and choose to teach: save.

You're absolutely correct, Charles. Professional facilities and those that care about actually WORKING in what people receive training in should care.

Perhaps Richard's thoughts may prove true: perhaps they really DID have a lively discussion about how out-of-touch with the reality of the working world of what happens after you need to export something from editorial and everything after that, and went 'wow we really need to address this.'

Can't go much above the dep't head, so... afraid I have to leave it as such and see what the future does indeed hold.
and and but maybe

Jeff

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by ankely

I feel bad for the kids.

Sure, and I feel bad for the audio and video post crews that get projects from them, too.

But you're right. Teaching is tough because no matter 'who' is there to 'learn', only some will succeed and work in that field. Just prepare them for the real world. I mean, take the extra HOUR and show them things they simply must know about.

Geez, you know, maybe even call upon a local facility to see if they can send someone down to do a little lecture for a period of time. Boom. Done.

Jeff

[Big Andy]

I went through one of the audio mills a long time ago and I felt like I learned a lot. It was a great foot hold. There were no lies about them getting you a job or you being qualified to do more than make coffee. I sincerely loved that place.

However, I will agree with all of the above. Had. It not been for my intern experience (self got), runner job (self got), asst. Engineer gig (self got), mix engineer (mom for me), I would not be the Dood I am today.

If there are any kids out there reading this, take my motto and enjoy:
There is such a thing as luck when it comes to getting a job in the film business. Luck is being prepared for the opportunity when the time comes.

When you capitalize on that opportunity and land that epic job, some one is gonna look at their friend and say, "boy, they just got lucky".

[Jfriah]

Yeah I got my first job directly because of school. It was a blessing (and a curse when I realized the hours and the fact I learned one page on timecode and one week on post-production and was now taking over a machine room). My school had good relationship with a studio and definitely "who you know".

That said, the school I'm talking about is an overall film program. Multiple-year. And grads don't know about sync pops, burn, or edl/omf info. (except those that self-taught additionally with outside work). Hooey.



At least to this year anyway...

[Jesse Peterson]

I always try to get these types to students to read john's dialog book. For what it's worth, the ones that have read it are still making films and won't use anyone else for sound besides me.

There was once a 6 week production sound workshop that was looking for people to come in and talk to the students, a friend sent me the link. I thought it would be valuable to give them Post's point of view, get these kids to understand the why's and how's and what I need to do the Dx edit. I was very clear about the fact that I was a post editor and did not do location sound.

I got a call back from the instructor who said my credentials looked great and asked me to bring in my mics field recording gear to demo.

[eighttwelve]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Just thought you'd all get a good chuckle from this like I did when I got my response back.

After dealing with a number of student productions (final year students) and some first-time directors/producers/editors' productions over the past year(s) I decided to contact the department head of the school to offer some information about some common findings. Things that the students/fresh grads were not aware of, apparently, but should be. And that we thought it would be a good idea to make sure it is being taught because, in the end, it will save time and money (and frustration) when they go on to do 'real life' projects.

Things like... creating EDLs ("what's an EDL?"), generating handles in OMFs, session start time (so things aren't coming in at 15 seconds in, or a random timecode, that kind of thing), creation of (and use of) sync-pops both head and tail, and my favourite--generating a timecode window burn ("what is a timecode burn?").

Response back was something to the effect of "your comments stirred a lively conversation, and will be taken into consideration in the future. Thank you."

Which made me sigh and go
Because it read to me like a fuuck

Can't wait till April when student productions come around again!

Jeff

Ya, it's a joke, I'm a student at a school which is supposed to be one of the best film schools in the country, and they haven't taught me any of that shit. I still haven't gotten an OMF to successfully work (I always use AAF which works great - what's the difference anyways?). There are only 5 sound designers this year and 52 directors. tutt What a joke. They really don't care though, they just want to make more money. Do you have any good info on more useful stuff like that they probably haven't taught me that I should know?

The biggest problem is that they taught me the bare minimum and then just made me do a bunch of productions without knowing the actual process, so now I can do it all to a pretty good degree, but I've created my own process. Which is fine if I'm in charge and doing everything myself, but is going to be difficult to get a job at a studio or something like that, which is really what I want to do. That or at a mixing or mastering studio.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by ankely

We were there to coddle them, give them A grades, to pass them even if they missed 13 out of 15 classes. Strange place. Pretty unbearable work place. Misinformation in spades..

i taught an audio engineering class when I lived in Vancouver.
I told the clients, showing up on time was half of their grade.
Every time they showed up late, they got a negative mark.
3 marks, and they failed the class.
No excuses would be accepted either.
As that's how it was going to be in the real world.
You show up late as an assistant, and you're out of a gig.

In the couple of semesters I taught, i never had a student show up late, or miss a class.