Young Post Professionals and Pro Tools

[SurveillanceP]

I'm making this thread because I have been feeling for some time now a gap between how I feel about mixing and how my mentors feel about it.

I've been trying to articulate this for months, please bear with me. I'll detail my experiences and frustrations first, and my vision last.

In my facility all my mentors are very happy about having a keyboard which has many shortcuts on it, and having a smart tool which can contextually respond to where a mouse is hovered. They also have quickey bar with many of their favourite plugins on it (declick, decrackle, NR etc) and they are very happy to about that.

I have trained for 12 months under the standard keyboard, under protagonists of both linked and unlinked, and various different styles of engaging with the UI. With a standard pro tools keyboard I can operate rapidly in linked or unlinked, now all the standard buttons are hardwired into my fingers.

We recently moved to Snow Leopard, and now each engineer has been given the blessing of setting their user profile and shortcuts up any way they want, as when they move studios, all they have to do is login as themselves and everything is there for them.

I come under constant friendly criticsm from my colleagues about my new setup. I've used quikkeys and the standard mac rebindings to rip out the standard pro tools keys and make new ones which I believe are much better.

I've tried to engage in a constructive dialogue, but its always been met with puzzlement or criticism. I've come to wonder if this is a generational thing. As if anyone over thirty just can't understand.

Here's my Problem-----(sounds small but I think its massive)

Your fingers must interact with something so you can mix. This is annoying but true for now. If your hand sits around the WASDEF keys, then unless you're trimming, every now and then you will have to press the delete key. You will probably have to glance down to do this.

To snap edit selection to timeline selection you will have to glance down at your keyboard. To snap a region to the next or previous region you will have to look at your keyboard or look at a contextual menu on screen.

To choose one of those 12345 zoom levels you'll have to glance at them unless your fingers are anchored near them.

Do you glance at the keyboard to press the seperate region (b) key?

The point is, everyone who is dialogue editing is glancing at their keyboard 20+ times per minute even with good knowledge of all shortcuts and modifiers. Everyone who is mixing is still glancing at the keyboard several times per minute. Apart from the wasted time, its breaking the spell, the communion with the source material. It shouldn't be like this.

Sorry for the long post, but its going to get alot longer. Thanks for readign this far

[SurveillanceP]

To continue:
Who presses the W button? Do you use it often? Q (centre screen on edit selection start) is more arguably useful, but how often do you use that? If your hand hovers over that area of the keyboard, do you ever hit E by mistake and explode a waveform you didn't want?

If you switch between turning smart tool on and off, has it not struck you that pressing Apple+7 is a stupidly inconveniently spaced hotkey?

Why is it that we receive a colour coded keyboard with icons on it and hard wired shortcuts, and think ourselves lucky, even though it wastes our time and constantly breaks our communion with the source material?

[NReichman]

Listen, if you're new to the industry, you need to prepare yourself for the day that you're sitting in on a big session and the chief mixer asks you to stop making coffee and sit down and drive the session. At that moment, you won't have time to custom-configure your system or log-in as a different user. You'll need to be able to sit down and GO!

Pro Tools' key commands aren't great, but they're standard, so get good at using them. Also, learn how to use a big control surface.

Good luck,

Nathaniel Reichman

[SurveillanceP]

Originally Posted by NReichman

Listen, if you're new to the industry, you need to prepare yourself for the day that you're sitting in on a big session and the chief mixer asks you to stop making coffee and sit down and drive the session. At that moment, you won't have time to custom-configure your system or log-in as a different user. You'll need to be able to sit down and GO!

Pro Tools' key commands aren't great, but they're standard, so get good at using them. Also, learn how to use a big control surface.

Good luck,

Nathaniel Reichman

Thank you, i appreciate that. its exactly what I've heard from the seniors around me. In response, I'd like to reiterate that I can drive a standard pro tools keybaord just fine, i can switch between linked and unlinked, whatever they want. I've faced the situation you just described a few times in the last few months in VO sessions and its been fine.

We use Icons and c24s. i'm adept at both now. But I'm looking forward to the future for something more is all. I mean this with the utmost respect.

[BeK$]

I have some great short cuts for making coffee !

But yea if you are working on a system that doesnt have your shortcuts loaded up on then yea its going to be a problem. But if your working at a place where it is loaded up then just do what suits you best. I dont think anyone is saying that Digidesign hired some guru to come up with the best way. Seems to me it just developed that way as the program became more capable. The best way you can explain your system to them is by just saying your thinking of the keyboard as a euphonix board where you are coming up with custom shortcuts that you use the most to overcome a few things you as a fresh user find cumbersome in protools. Either way if it makes you quicker and more comfortable then just do it but make sure you can load up your short cuts on a moments notice because its already a pain walking into a room thats different than another. We have two rooms here and one guy just refuses to name his busses and we get to guess...

[SurveillanceP]

Before all the responses come in let me just say this.

I belive that the design of our UI's, and the design of our micro workflow should be up to us.

This isn't a big thing. When you login to avid symphony all you have to do is click and select your user settings, and its all there. We in audio accept not having this.

Likewise with the Icon and c24's. Who in post uses those massive columns of knobs and faders up the right side of the Icon? The tiny eq section is a godsend, and likewise many of the softkeys, but what about the rest?

Wouldn't you prefer a board which is modular and hotswappable, keyed to your needs and workflow, so that you can build a system which takes the minimal amount of time away from mixing?

[sailor]

When Digi designed the ProTools hot keys I just learned them and got on with it. They aren't perfect, but nothing is. Sure, I still get annoyed with the E and Y keys....but whatever. I have bigger things to worry about when I'm doing a project.

The only person who should care about which key you hit for a given function is you. If you can program other keys that work better for you, have at it. But you may encounter less ribbing from your colleagues if you remember to restore the settings everyone else prefers once you've finished working in the room.

For me, I just figured that since the PT standard would always be there no matter where I was working, it made sense to run with it. Having been doing this for a long time, I rarely have to look at the keyboard -- my fingers just fall where they need to. If I miss from time to time, I just undo and hit the correct key. Costs me all of one second.

Whatever the layout of a given control surface or interface is, you just spend time on it, build your muscle memory, and do your work. No big deal.

[macaholic]

Also SurveillanceP,

You seem to be using the word "mixing" interchangeably with "editing", and I dare say the re-recording mixers have an entirely different take on your perception of "Who in post uses those massive columns of knobs"...

I might not reach for them as much as much as the center section, but the visual feedback they give is essential.

Also you are saying give us customizable user keys "which takes the minimal amount of time away from mixing?"... again as a mixer (it MIGHT be a generational thing like you suggest), but anything that takes my attention away from my console (like adjusting a crossfade, or trimming a region), is what I consider going back to the realm of editing.

The younger audio folks where I work (who STARTED with DAWs) tend to rely TOO much on the visuals of mixing, and seem to throw their ears out the window. Here's a little exercise I learned from Chris Lambrechts at the DUC. Turn off your computer monitors and use yours ears... it's pretty refreshing. I'll bet your opinions on "keyboard shortcuts" change.

[FullFrequency]

Originally Posted by macaholic

The younger audio folks where I work (who STARTED with DAWs) tend to rely TOO much on the visuals of mixing, and seem to throw their ears out the window. Here's a little exercise I learned from Chris Lambrechts at the DUC. Turn off your computer monitors and use yours ears... it's pretty refreshing. I'll bet your opinions on "keyboard shortcuts" change.

So true..... I'm one of them and have recently started doing exactly as you suggested (although I'd always listen back with the screen off and make notes to tweak from). It felt really weird not having a visual reference to cue from at first. Having said that when i'm doing a mix the keyboard never gets touched except from when in a situation when an edit needs to be tweaked. All those column of knobs certainly get used

FF

[ggegan]

Unfortunately, with the demise of cue sheets turning off the monitor isn't really an option anymore for many mixers. However, I agree about not getting hung up on the computer monitor graphics display. That is a representation of the sound, not the sound itself, so while the feedback is nice, one shouldn't make the mistake of mixing visually. I try to direct my attention at the big screen where the movie is playing. That is where the story is, not on the computer monitor.

[Lipflap]

While I appreciate your fascination with speed and efficiency, I have to say that I just don’t get your priorities. Let me get this out on the table before proceeding: I am indeed one of those oldsters who began on mag and film. I’m a dialogue editor, I’ve been editing for 30+ years and I like to think that I’m pretty good at it. However, speed and machine skills are low on my list of editing essentials.

If you were to videotape me working during any randomly selected hour, you’d see a few bursts of manic keyboard wrestling, interspersed with some very laid back listening, moments of referring to EDLs and sound reports, more manic keyboard wrestling, and a certain amount to time dedicated to, well… thinking. Having said that, I always get the job done on time, and I very rarely work late. For me, machine skills beyond necessary competence offer diminishing returns.

Of course, there are situations where super hotrod machine mastery is a plus, and I’m sure it’s loads of fun. (Also, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if your operating skills outshine my own.) But, being of the mentor generation, I worry that this obsession with keyboard short cuts and now many times per minute you are forced to stop — even if for a brief moment — rather than occasionally slowing down to contemplate is harmful for the product. Some of the best ideas originate from mistakes, and some of the nastiest problems are resolved in that moment when you must wait for your machine or for your not-so-nimble fingers to figure out what to do.

In any case, good luck-

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

... I worry that this obsession with keyboard short cuts and now many times per minute you are forced to stop — even if for a brief moment — rather than occasionally slowing down to contemplate is harmful for the product. Some of the best ideas originate from mistakes, and some of the nastiest problems are resolved in that moment when you must wait for your machine or for your not-so-nimble fingers to figure out what to do.

In any case, good luck-

Yes, yes, yes!

[thehardliner]

This isn't the army. Each post house is different.
Whatever works for your workflow best. There are a million ways to skin a cat, it's results and speed that matter most.dfegad

[jahtao]

Originally Posted by thehardliner

This isn't the army.

made me laugh : )

[macaholic]

Originally Posted by SurveillanceP

I have trained for 12 months under the standard keyboard...

I've come to wonder if this is a generational thing. As if anyone over thirty just can't understand.

Also I think you might do better to try not to come across as quite so insulting to guys that MIGHT be able to offer you some GREAT education...

I remember one of the guys who was interning here say, "yeah, I've pretty much mastered Pro Tools"... my initial reaction was "wow, and I've been using it 13 years and I STILL am learning new stuff."

A little humility goes a long way with people you consider to be a mentor. Learn from their years of experience... I learn new stuff all the time from our younger staff, BUT it is a two way street...

Also do yourself a favor and buy John's book... it is a "must have" for any aspiring editors library

[Jfriah]

Very interesting discussion. Thanks for putting it out there, Surveil. It is great to hear both sides and some of the vets have good insight. I'm only about 15 years in, and work 100% with keyboard and mouse/trackball.

You really may not be as 'out there' as others think; I mean all 'visionaries' (Hey I'm not CALLING you that so don't get all pumped up , I'm just using the term because it only really applies 'after the fact, ya know?') get called kooky for a good chunk of time before things become 'the way'.

You could be on to something in the sheer, and simple fact that the UI technology may very well change 'at some point'. If users choose to use a 'stock' setup, and that's what they know, great. If users choose to custom-configure their systems (mixing presents / routing paths / templates, anyone? How about how you have the backrest and arms of your chair set?), great. Someone else sits down and shakes their head (and adjusts armrests, backrest...) and puts it the way THEY want, and go to work.

Forget programmable user keys. The future is being able to touch your regions and move, shrink, cut, zoom with very simple things (hello mighty mouse/trackpad? cough cough touch-sensitive screens?) or motions. That's MY dream and I'm sticking to it. And when it happens, I'll say 'finally!' (like wi-fi camera card and other inventions I've had and never patented, like my old idea of a television with---get this---a VCR built in!).

Not picking sides, but it comes down to (I think, for now anyway) how a user gets the job done. In the time given. We all know "technology is getting faster to give users more leisure time and time with their families and not stuck in front of a ________" but that's a line of bunk. Especially in the editing and (especially) mixing world. When's the last time you had a shorter session because the gear allows you to do things faster?

"oh I know you can just quickly change out that dog bark..."
"oh I know you can just roll back to reel one and revisit the scene where..."
"I think we still have time today to..."

John, if his priority was speed and efficiency with goal to get through projects quicker and have more of a life outside work, I have no problem with his prioritzation. No?

And on the flipside, it is all about getting stuff done 'well' and on time/budget. If you get there 'faster' and you think it gives you more time to do more or to take more finesse passes, or run out and play basketball with the guys, super.

My experience is "ya can't fight City Hall", but eventually they may come around to your way of thinking. (meaning you may be ahead of the technology, as we all are in wanting certain key/commands to be enabled, software changes, etc. as users, and it may eventually catch up).

Jeff

p.s. don't forget that Walter Murch got/gets some great ideas/thoughts/impulses when he'd be rolling back or rolling slowly on his Moviola. Personally, I'm trying to get to the point to ENJOY my system crashes and freezes because that forces me to get up and away from the darstardly thing and maybe get some new thoughts when coming back.

[jahtao]

Surv-P, I'm all about constantly questioning what you do and how you do it. And looking for opportunities to be 0.1% better (or faster... faster is better!). 1000 of those and your 100% better!!

Sounds like you've got the right attitude. If it gives you a bit of a boost then great!

[ggegan]

Both John and Jeff have some interesting points.

I remember when I started as a re-recording mixer back in the mag days we used to have at least 4 weeks for low budget films and usually 6 to 8 weeks to mix a feature, sometimes even more, and I mean 2 or 3 mixers on the job for the entire time. I once calculated that we actually spent more time shuttling, locating and rewinding (at 4x speed max) than we did mixing, and that didn't include 45 minute reel changes. So now that we have random access, instant locating, no need of pre-roll and almost instantaneous reel changes we should have more than twice as much creative time for mixing, right? But what did they do? They cut back to 2 man mixes with one man predubs and cut the schedule in half, all in addition to every mix is now 5.1 and more complex.

All that non-mixing time did give us a chance to think and strategize and play with new reverb settings, etc. Now it's hit the ground running and don't slow down until it's done. No time anymore to experiment on the dub stage or even think about alternatives, just go for what you know.

[Jfriah]

Gary's nailed an exact point there about his (and many others') experiencing 'back in the day' vs. now.

I've run machine room during 2" mixes and strung 16mm projectors and 35mm projectors (the only 35mm mag sound I've handled was at the start of a popular sci-fi show that had to pull some sound elements from the film it was based on, and also 35mm printmastering before MO). Changing reels and rewind times were chances to for mixers to grab their breath and their wits (and rest their ears).

My first ADR session where the director stood up, barked "reel change!" and got up to go for a smoke, I said "Ok, done." by the time he'd hit the door to the studio. But he still wanted his break so I was fine with it.

It very much IS hit the ground running (especially when handling pre-mixed tracks or when you already have things routed, reverb settings done, etc.). Gary said "no time anymore to..."

Well, what's all that technology done for us? It is so much faster, so much more powerful, so much BETTER...

We should be working two hour days and having nothing else to do but read, relax, lay on the beach and soak it all in.

Oh. Gotta wake up now, my noise reduction is done processing. Gotta get back TO IT.

Technology... damn you! (said tongue-in-cheek of course)

Jeff

[Cuchillito]

hi! greetings from argentina!
I don´t rely too much on shortcuts, just the basics: R T zoom, A S B for cuts, C X V for copy paste cut....
instead, i use no mouse, but a WACOM graphic table, almost for 13 years now. and i´ve been doing preety well around here working for tv and some films.
and i do think that new generations of workers talk to much about shortcuts and the speed of editing almost every operation in timeline with them. And of course worried about having the super last plugin wich measures graphically the levels of the mix. i say to them "use your mouse ( better a wacom), feel the automatization envelope and rely on your ears! with a good pair of speakers"
even with a protools 6.1 and a couple of plugins combined with the magic in your hand and ears can do wonderful work!
am i crazy?

[SurveillanceP]

Originally Posted by macaholic

Also I think you might do better to try not to come across as quite so insulting to guys that MIGHT be able to offer you some GREAT education...

I remember one of the guys who was interning here say, "yeah, I've pretty much mastered Pro Tools"... my initial reaction was "wow, and I've been using it 13 years and I STILL am learning new stuff."

A little humility goes a long way with people you consider to be a mentor. Learn from their years of experience... I learn new stuff all the time from our younger staff, BUT it is a two way street...

Also do yourself a favor and buy John's book... it is a "must have" for any aspiring editors library

Sorry. I didn't want to come across like that.

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

John, if his priority was speed and efficiency with goal to get through projects quicker and have more of a life outside work, I have no problem with his prioritzation. No?

And on the flipside, it is all about getting stuff done 'well' and on time/budget. If you get there 'faster' and you think it gives you more time to do more or to take more finesse passes, or run out and play basketball with the guys, super.

Fair enough. Time saved is time saved, whether you spend the resulting gift moments finessing your tracks or watching Debbie Does Dallas. Efficiency is good: it streamlines production, increases productivity, and enhances one's competitiveness. That seems good. It's when speed and efficiency become goals in and of themselves, eclipsing the product, that I start twitching.

But, as was aptly pointed out, you can't fight city hall, so machine skills are increasingly valued. So I guess I'd suggest to the youngsters, "Hone your machine skills in order to get the job and to make repetitive chores more efficient and palatable, but don't forget that when people pay good money to watch the movie, they won't give a hoot about how sexy you are when you pilot a Pro Tools, Fairlight, Pyramix, or whatever else. The money is coming off the screen."

[SurveillanceP]

Originally Posted by macaholic

Also SurveillanceP,

You seem to be using the word "mixing" interchangeably with "editing", and I dare say the re-recording mixers have an entirely different take on your perception of "Who in post uses those massive columns of knobs"...

I might not reach for them as much as much as the center section, but the visual feedback they give is essential.

Also you are saying give us customizable user keys "which takes the minimal amount of time away from mixing?"... again as a mixer (it MIGHT be a generational thing like you suggest), but anything that takes my attention away from my console (like adjusting a crossfade, or trimming a region), is what I consider going back to the realm of editing.

The younger audio folks where I work (who STARTED with DAWs) tend to rely TOO much on the visuals of mixing, and seem to throw their ears out the window. Here's a little exercise I learned from Chris Lambrechts at the DUC. Turn off your computer monitors and use yours ears... it's pretty refreshing. I'll bet your opinions on "keyboard shortcuts" change.

I'd like to reply to a few of these points respectfully if I may.

I assure you I undestand the difference between editing and mixing. I'm sorry if my post implied otherwise.

I also understand the danger of mixing visually. I'll freely admit that at the moment because I'm new I rely on my meters more than experienced mixers. Even so, I frequently close my eyes when listening back to difficult passages (turning off the monitors is too inconvenient for me at the moment but I'm willing to try it in future.)

[SurveillanceP]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Very interesting discussion. Thanks for putting it out there, Surveil. It is great to hear both sides and some of the vets have good insight. I'm only about 15 years in, and work 100% with keyboard and mouse/trackball.

You really may not be as 'out there' as others think; (edit)

You could be on to something in the sheer, and simple fact that the UI technology may very well change 'at some point'. If users choose to use a 'stock' setup, and that's what they know, great. If users choose to custom-configure their systems (mixing presents / routing paths / templates, anyone? How about how you have the backrest and arms of your chair set?), great. Someone else sits down and shakes their head (and adjusts armrests, backrest...) and puts it the way THEY want, and go to work. (edit)

Forget programmable user keys. The future is being able to touch your regions and move, shrink, cut, zoom with very simple things (hello mighty mouse/trackpad? cough cough touch-sensitive screens?) or motions. That's MY dream and I'm sticking to it.

Thank you, I'm glad that you can see where I'm going with this.

Back onto the soapbox, I'm looking to a future where the interaction between me and my machine is streamlined, fast, and takes up the most minute amount of brain space possible. Although I can see how ideas can come to you while you're fumbling for the right controls, or how a technical glitch can give your brain breathing room, I don't want to subscribe that because I don't think its neccessary. When I want to stop and reflect, I just stop and reflect.

Although I appreciate that I've brought this on myself by the exposition of my original post, I'd really like to discuss me and my inexperience less, and how we can improve relations with the machine more, so that the machine gets less attention and the source material gets more.

If its not too late, I'd like to pull the thread towards that angle. Even as I write this my flatmate sits nexts to me cuttign in Avid. With two clicks he can select his personal user settings- colours, keys, shortcuts, scripts, etc. Now thats an industry standard I'd like!

I'm really not trying to be provocative for its own sake here. I'm just trying to see who else thinks the way I do, and what we can do about making things better.

[Lipflap]

I assume you've looked at Fairlight's Xynergi interactive control surface.

Welcome To Fairlight - Provider of Professional Audio Production Solutions

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

I find working on PT doing post pretty similar to playing on an instrument. Improvising especially. Many decisions take place some kind I would say "out of mind", which is that you feel, that something should be done, I you do it without thinking about which key command, plug-in, whatever is suitable for a particular task. But there is a need for training, lots of training and experience. This is like people ask, what kind of compression or eq is suitable for good dialog sound... Most answers are: settings at which dialog sounds good to you. But hey, how do I know how good dialog sounds?

Best,
Kuba

[Bill@AudioVision]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

I assume you've looked at Fairlight's Xynergi interactive control surface.

Welcome To Fairlight - Provider of Professional Audio Production Solutions

..Took the words right out of my mouth.
I have watched ace PT users and am still surprised at all the steps needed to do fairly routine tasks.
The Xynergi takes your two hands and translates the keystrokes into as few as necessary to get the job done. It's an absolutely amazing system. And the new 3.0 software adds custom layouts you can design - and NO keyboard overlays. The keys change their display. Because both hands are equally active, using the mouse can slow you down. And, you can spend hours working and no carpel-tunnel.

[nathand]

If you're a Fairlight user on the Xynergi platform try out Alt Layout 7, it is my custom design.

Program Files -> Fairlight -> FMC -> Data -> System Variables.TXT (Choose ALT_Layout, 7 if it is not already there) When Dream II is launched hit Blue + Editor to enter the Alt Layout. If you are transitioning from a Binnacle to a Xynergi you will certainly appreciate the work I've done.

PM me if you are curious about how to create your own layout.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Bill@AudioVision

I have watched ace PT users and am still surprised at all the steps needed to do fairly routine tasks.
The Xynergi takes your two hands and translates the keystrokes into as few as necessary to get the job done.

An example?

Just curious... After my early-90's AudioFile phase (the 2nd Green Screen west of the Rockies, or so I've been led to believe) and a stint with an MFX3/FAME, I've been a PT guy ever since. In my current incarnation I'm constantly hauling drives from room to room, or up and down Magnolia and Burbank Blvds., so a non-PT scenario for me is unlikely. But I still admire the greener grass on the other side.

[Bill@AudioVision]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

An example?

OK, let's say I have several clips (regions) that need to come up 4db, and have a recently used parametric EQ placed on them.
From Edit Supermode (1 keystroke to access):
Group clips: left hand presses 'range start', spin jog wheel to end point with right hand, set end point with left hand (1-2sec)
Press and hold 'clip gain', rotate jog wheel to desired gain, release 'clip gain', done. (1 sec.)
Press 'clip EQ' and 'enter', you've just pasted EQ to all the clips. (< 1 sec.) Click 'export', choose file type including OMF and AAF, choose 'include clip gain and EQ', name the file, done.
NO plugins, No fuss, No muss. Take the file anywhere.
I think the grass IS greener.
Just my $.02