DVD audio encoding...

[jrfountain]

Hey,

A film I mixed is in the process of having it's DVD authored and the director just sent me an email from the guy doing it...

"Please also note that I changed the audio tracks from DTS-MA to Uncompressed 5.1. After some tests yesterday I decided that we should go this route instead of the DTS-MA."

While not being an expert on authoring DVD's my first reaction was, why isn't he encoding it as a Dolby Digital AC3? Isn't that probably the most compatible format for dvd players? To me, if it's just uncompressed, the only people that would be able to listen to it would be those that have discrete outs on their dvd player, am I wrong?

I think he's just going for what sounds best, because as I recall most people find that DTS sounds better that DD and so maybe that's why he's avoiding DD and going with uncompressed.

Any thoughts, advice?

Thanks!
JR

[mikevarela]

your right that Dolby Digital is the most prominent surround matrixed format, though DTS has been around for quite a wile. I guess he's stated that it's up to him, though a call to the theater would save you some heartache should the player not be compatible.

Maybe 2 different DVd's?

[pneyrinck]

Are you talking about Blu-ray? DVD does not allow linear PCM 5.1. And DTS-Master Audio (MA) is for Blu-ray only. If you put 5.1 surround on a DVD you have to use Dolby Digital and optionally a second DTS track for higher fidelity 5.1.

[pneyrinck]

Originally Posted by mikevarela

... Dolby Digital is the most prominent surround matrixed format...

Dolby Digital is not a matrix encoded format. It is a discrete encoded format. For more info on all the surround technologies, I wrote a blog article here:

TV/DVD Surround Encoding Technologies

[mikevarela]

paul,

your right.. misspoke there... meant encoded discrete and was looking for the word muxed.

cheers

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by pneyrinck

Are you talking about Blu-ray? DVD does not allow linear PCM 5.1. And DTS-Master Audio (MA) is for Blu-ray only. If you put 5.1 surround on a DVD you have to use Dolby Digital and optionally a second DTS track for higher fidelity 5.1.

It does if it's a DVD-Audio disc, but that's pretty much a dead format. Still, it is the title of this thread, although the reference to "director" would seem to imply a video track.

I think you can also use PCM Stereo as the first track and then DTS w/o a DD track on DVD-V (since PCM is one of the mandatory formats, after that you can add an optional like DTS), although you probably would want to have a DD track, just for compatibility's sake.

LPCM surround discrete was part of the DVD-V spec but no authoring sw and no players ever implemented it as far as I know. It would have severely restricted the video bandwidth anyway.

[neilwilkes]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

It does if it's a DVD-Audio disc, but that's pretty much a dead format. Still, it is the title of this thread, although the reference to "director" would seem to imply a video track.

So many people confuse music DVD-Video with DVD-Audio.

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

I think you can also use PCM Stereo as the first track and then DTS w/o a DD track on DVD-V (since PCM is one of the mandatory formats, after that you can add an optional like DTS), although you probably would want to have a DD track, just for compatibility's sake.

Audio stream #1 must be one of the 2 mandatory codecs for DVD-Video's audio, LPCM or Dolby Digital.
Stream 2-8 can be optional such as DTS or MPEG.
Also, every title within a VTS must have the same audio assignments to keep in spec, even the menus. You cannot, for example, mix Dolby Digital menu audio with LPCM title audio in the same VTS.

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

LPCM surround discrete was part of the DVD-V spec but no authoring sw and no players ever implemented it as far as I know. It would have severely restricted the video bandwidth anyway.

It was supposed to be for pure music titles, but the problem was the 6.144Mb/sec limitation meant that 16/48 in 5.1 was about as good as it could have been - not so great. That still left 3,000kbps for a still show, which would be plenty good enough for music - although because DVD-Video is graphically/Visually dominant the audio follows the onscreen display - so browseable lyric pages & song sheets were unusable as they glitched the audio.
DVD-A was far superior in this regard, and also should - if authored properly - play on all DVD players too, not just Audio capable ones.

I think the OP is talking about Blu Ray discs - DTS-HD MA cannot be used in SD.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by neilwilkes

I think the OP is talking about Blu Ray discs - DTS-HD MA cannot be used in SD.

It's curious that he would prefer the uncompressed to DTS-HD MA, since that format offers "downwards" compatibility.

[jrfountain]

Hey Everybody,

Thanks for the replies. Now that some of you have brought it up, I think you're right it is a BluRay disc that they're authoring. And yes, it's a film not an audio only disc. So back to the original question, is it ok that they use uncompressed as opposed to dolby digital?

Thanks,
JR

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by jrfountain

Hey Everybody,

Thanks for the replies. Now that some of you have brought it up, I think you're right it is a BluRay disc that they're authoring. And yes, it's a film not an audio only disc. So back to the original question, is it ok that they use uncompressed as opposed to dolby digital?

Thanks,
JR

I'd certainly use PCM over DD, but I'd rather use DTS-HD MA because it's a lossless codec which switches to a lossy codec on inferior playback systems (and is higher bit rate than DD, even though it's lossy). Since in either version it runs at a reduced bitrate compared to LPCM, you have more bandwidth for HD-Video which can definitely be a bit-hog. There's only so much bandwidth, even with Blu-Ray and even though Blu-Ray has more bandwidth than DVD-V, the assets for Blu-Ray require more bandwidth as well.

The more appropriate question is the choice between Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA, in which case Dolby TrueHD might be more compatible across playback situations, but I haven't verified this. Dolby is certainly a bigger company than DTS and wields more influence.

That said, DTS is a mandatory codec for all Blu-Ray devices and can stand as the *only* audio format on the disc, unlike the situation with DVD-V.

Do you know which authoring platform is being used to produce the Blu-Ray disc? If it's a prosumer version, a lot of them will not work reliably with PCM surround (a least with certain releases). Some of them say they will "transparently pass" multichannel PCM interleaved files, but then you get into the problematic situation that various DAWs produce interleaved files that do not have the same channel format!!!!!

[jrfountain]

Thanks K.K.!

I've emailed the director to find out what the guy is using but also attached your response.

If I'm reading you right then, the DTS-MA is the way to go as all bluray players have to have that decoder on them, plus it sounds better and leaves more room for the HD video to playback properly. Correct?

JR

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by jrfountain

Thanks K.K.!

I've emailed the director to find out what the guy is using but also attached your response.

If I'm reading you right then, the DTS-MA is the way to go as all bluray players have to have that decoder on them, plus it sounds better and leaves more room for the HD video to playback properly. Correct?

JR

There are also good reasons for going with TrueHD, because Dolby is such a major force in the industry.

Yet again, there are several releases out with PCM at 24 bit/ 48 kHz.

I'd prefer DTS-MA HD, but there are good reasons why others have chosen differently.

With a lot of prosumer authoring apps, you're pretty much stuck with PCM stereo, I'm sorry to say. With pro apps, you have more latitude.

[thierryd]

KK, I asked this on DUC as well recently, but did you manage to author a BluRay disc with 6ch PCM with DVDit and if so, with what version?

I have a client who is looking for the cheapest/easiest solution to play back 6ch PCM or Lossless audio (no picture necessary) on a HDMI capable Hometheater system, without going through an expensive authoring (it's for a one time, one disc presentation).
Any ideas?

Cheers,

Thierry

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by thierryd

KK, I asked this on DUC as well recently, but did you manage to author a BluRay disc with 6ch PCM with DVDit and if so, with what version?

I have a client who is looking for the cheapest/easiest solution to play back 6ch PCM or Lossless audio (no picture necessary) on a HDMI capable Hometheater system, without going through an expensive authoring (it's for a one time, one disc presentation).
Any ideas?

Cheers,

Thierry

No, I never achieved that and I haven't checked the latest version of Encore, either. Really that problem about multichannel file incompatibility has been problematic.

Maybe Neil will jump in and have something hopeful to offer.

Wonder if QT would support it out the miniDVI to HDMI adapter (gotta be the latest machines, I think, to support audio out HDMI from that port).

Interesting info:

How to : Create Multi Channel Audio with QuickTime Pro | digital learning foundation

If you want to make a short file, I have a mini display port to HDMI adapter and a next-to-last generation MBP.

[thierryd]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

No, I never achieved that and I haven't checked the latest version of Encore, either. Really that problem about multichannel file incompatibility has been problematic.

Maybe Neil will jump in and have something hopeful to offer.

Wonder if QT would support it out the miniDVI to HDMI adapter (gotta be the latest machines, I think, to support audio out HDMI from that port).

Interesting info:

How to : Create Multi Channel Audio with QuickTime Pro | digital learning foundation

If you want to make a short file, I have a mini DVI to HDMI adapter and a next-to-last generation MBP.

thanks for the offer KK, but I've researched a bit more and read the links you posted and BluRay authoring is not something I intend to do commercially. It seems a quick simple solution for multichannel PCM on BluRay is just not an option.
For audio out of the DVI-to-HDMI on the MBP it definitely needs to be a late generation. For the older ones there is a solution such as this:
http://www.cablematters.com/manual/101011.pdf
and even there I'm wondering if the quote:
"Supports uncompressed audio such as LPCM." means it can do multichannel PCM...
But it all goes beyond what I have time for for now...
If anybody has done multichannel PCM to HDMI with a simple solution, I'm interested.

Cheers,

Thierry

[kk@jamsync.com]

Weii,

If you want to spend $850, there's this:

MOTU HDX-SDI video interface with ExpressCard34 | Sweetwater.com

[thierryd]

I should have been more clear:
"If anybody has done multichannel PCM to HDMI, using BluRay, with a simple/cheap (authoring) solution, I'm interested".
As I can see useful applications for this in the future.
For complete film BluRay authoring with menus etc I send clients to a professional authoring house.

Cheers,

Thierry

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by thierryd

I should have been more clear:
"If anybody has done multichannel PCM to HDMI, using BluRay, with a simple/cheap (authoring) solution, I'm interested".
As I can see useful applications for this in the future.
For complete film BluRay authoring with menus etc I send clients to a professional authoring house.

Cheers,

Thierry

Well...I think, to be specific, that HDMI is a function of the BluRay player and has nothing to do with authoring BluRay. Even a $99 Sansui has HDMI out. It's that simple/cheap authoring solution that's the sticking point.

[thierryd]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

Well...I think, to be specific, that HDMI is a function of the BluRay player and has nothing to do with authoring BluRay. Even a $99 Sansui has HDMI out. It's that simple/cheap authoring solution that's the sticking point.

Absolutely, but the only way of getting the lossless codecs and multichannel PCM into a hometheater system is via HDMI. AFAIK this can't be done with the optical or coaxial digital out connections.

That's why I think it's interesting to have a quick/cheap authoring solution to get 5.1 or 7.1 mixes or let's call them 6 and 8 channel mixes (because I see other options) on a BluRay.
A couple of applications:
1. making a quick multichannel Bluray ref disk to check out mixes on other systems and other environments. Let's call it the next generation DVD checkdisk but with better sound than 5.1 ac3 (one could argue that DTS gives you already better quality, but you see my point) and the possibility to check 7.1

2. for museum installations we have been using all sorts of SD and HD players with multichannel audio, but if one could use a BluRay player to play HD content with multichannel audio (this could be 4, 5, 6 channel sound + TC or other steering channel or whatever), this could be an interesting solution. But this application is for one (or a couple of) disc(s) and it would be mad to go through an expensive authoring for this. Also in this application the HDMI would probably only be used for getting the HD picture to the screen. The player should have built-in mulitchannel analog outputs (although we have done installations with a seperate multichannel decoder as well). A big plus for using Bluray in these situations would be ease of use and readily available cheap hardware.

I made a few shortcuts in my previous posts, but I hope it is more clear now.

Also eventually there will be a sort of iMovie/iDVD with this implementation, but we probably have to wait a bit longer for this to happen.

Cheers,

Thierry

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by thierryd

Also eventually there will be a sort of iMovie/iDVD with this implementation, but we probably have to wait a bit longer for this to happen.

Cheers,

Thierry

I'm afraid you're right. I've been looking for a solution for some time now.

[tom_lowe]

SurCode for DTS-HD :: Overview

This may be of interest. Compressor 3.5 has limited Blu-Ray authoring options and very simple menus, but this does offer a way of getting 6.1 (not 7.1 as Compressor has a limit on multichannel audio) at decent quality onto disc.

Just export each channel as an AIFF and use the Compressor surround sound menu to drag and drop them in and encode. Cheap too.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by tom_lowe

SurCode for DTS-HD :: Overview

This may be of interest. Compressor 3.5 has limited Blu-Ray authoring options and very simple menus, but this does offer a way of getting 6.1 (not 7.1 as Compressor has a limit on multichannel audio) at decent quality onto disc.

Just export each channel as an AIFF and use the Compressor surround sound menu to drag and drop them in and encode. Cheap too.

Might be an option, but bear in mind, Encore (the only cheap authoring choice in this case) can only import .cpt files, not
.dtshd files. Since this makes the disc not BD compliant for commercial release, I'd wonder if this would make the disc less compatible across players as well.

Just a thought...I'd certainly use SurCode plus Do Studio for commercial releases. That's an economical commercial solution.

[tom_lowe]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

Might be an option, but bear in mind, Encore (the only cheap authoring choice in this case) can only import .cpt files, not
.dtshd files. Since this makes the disc not BD compliant for commercial release, I'd wonder if this would make the disc less compatible across players as well.

Just a thought...I'd certainly use SurCode plus Do Studio for commercial releases. That's an economical commercial solution.

Using that plug-in for Compressor, you bypass DVD SP or Encore - the video and audio are encoded, muxed and authored all in Compressor - hence the limited menu options. It does give a cheap and easy way to get decent audio on Blu-Ray. Not good for comercial release, but for screeners etc. where you don't need complex menus, it's great.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by tom_lowe

Using that plug-in for Compressor, you bypass DVD SP or Encore - the video and audio are encoded, muxed and authored all in Compressor - hence the limited menu options. It does give a cheap and easy way to get decent audio on Blu-Ray. Not good for comercial release, but for screeners etc. where you don't need complex menus, it's great.

That's the problem...all I've seen is that the Compressor route encodes 5.1 to Dolby Digital. Have you had success with LPCM?
Otherwise, if it's encoding to QT 5.1 AAC, that's been problematic for most receivers.

[tom_lowe]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

That's the problem...all I've seen is that the Compressor route encodes 5.1 to Dolby Digital. Have you had success with LPCM?
Otherwise, if it's encoding to QT 5.1 AAC, that's been problematic for most receivers.

What I'm saying is that the plug-in from SurCode called DTSHD for Compressor enables you to get up to 6.1 discreet channels encoded as DTS HD Master Audio on BluRay using nothing but Compressor. After encoding the files, you can set Compressor to author the files to BluRay, without the need to use Encore etc.

www.dtshdforcompressor.com

I can't see what encoding to AAC has to do with BluRay? It's not an accepted audio CODEC.

There is no easy way to do LPCM to BluRay, but why bother when DTS HD is every bit as good.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by tom_lowe

What I'm saying is that the plug-in from SurCode called DTSHD for Compressor enables you to get up to 6.1 discreet channels encoded as DTS HD Master Audio on BluRay using nothing but Compressor. After encoding the files, you can set Compressor to author the files to BluRay, without the need to use Encore etc.

www.dtshdforcompressor.com

I can't see what encoding to AAC has to do with BluRay? It's not an accepted audio CODEC.

There is no easy way to do LPCM to BluRay, but why bother when DTS HD is every bit as good.

I don't think you're reading step 5 in the workflow page correctly. You have to *author* the disc using a compatible authoring system. Encore is by far the cheapest of the lot and it only accepts .cpt files NOT .dtshd files.

Compressor is NOT an authoring system; it doesn't burn Blu-Ray discs with DTS-HD. Go to "workflow" in that link you posted; then follow through to the page that lists compatible authoring systems.

Now we're both simply repeating what we've said before.

DTS in no way states a case where Compressor authors BluRay discs with DTS-HD:

SurCode for DTS-HD :: The Workflow

Now go here:

SurCode for DTS-HD :: Just the FAQs

And read this:

Can I burn a DTS-HD encoded audio stream with picture to a Blu-ray burner with Compressor?
Not at this time. Compressor has enabled basic BD-burning, but does not currently include support for DTS-HD files. Please check the compatible .dtshd authoring systems list below for further assistance.


Compatible Authoring Systems

What are the compatible authoring systems for Blu-ray Disc?
Sonic Scenarist, Sony Blu-Print, NetBlender DoStudio, and CANVASs Sirius Blu all support .dtshd file import/pass-through. Adobe Encore CS4 can import .cpt files for Blu-ray disc authoring - please see note below.


Does Adobe Encore CS4 support .dtshd files for Blu-ray?
No. Currently, Encore only supports DTS .cpt files. Please note that while Adobe Encore CS4 supports .cpt file import/pass-through, these encodes are not BD compliant for commercial product release.


--------------------------

.cpt files are NOT lossless. For someone who wants the equivalent of native LPCM via lossless compression, this is not a format that would work...and that's the issue we have been addressing.

So your statement: "DTSHD for Compressor enables you to get up to 6.1 discreet channels encoded as DTS HD Master Audio on BluRay using nothing but Compressor" is not accurate. This would be an expensive mistake to make, so let's get the facts correct for all the people who would really like this functionality. I'm one of them. I wish it were true, but it isn't.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Here's a workaround I found on the Adobe forums...note I have NOT tried it!!!!

"Interestingly enough I found that TSmuxer (a free download) does accept .DTSHD audio files so I can use it to mux my audio/video over to a M2TS, and create a Blu Ray file structure for burning with Image Burn. The downside to this is.... no menus."



Adobe Forums: DTS - Am I dreaming?

A word to the adventurous: this utility does NOT support Snow Leopard yet, at least not in any form I've found

I'm going to try to use TSmuxer to make an M2TS file with video and a .DTSHD file and see if Toast will make an "idiot disk". That is, a BluRay that just plays, doesn't have menus and you have to eject it. I think that's a minimum someone could use...if it works. First, I have to check for a Mac around here that still has Leopard on it.

[tom_lowe]

OK, that's fair enough but I never claimed that .cpt files were lossless.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by tom_lowe

OK, that's fair enough but I never claimed that .cpt files were lossless.

Actually, saying "6.1 discreet channels encoded as DTS HD Master Audio on BluRay using nothing but Compressor" means "lossless". DTS-HD Master Audio is a lossless codec.

What you were claiming is that you could put lossless audio on BluRay with Compressor...and you can't (although I have no idea why Adobe won't upgrade Encore to do that).

But...it may be possible with the workaround I mentioned. We'll see. It certainly won't have menus, though...bummer.

[tom_lowe]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

Actually, saying "6.1 discreet channels encoded as DTS HD Master Audio on BluRay using nothing but Compressor" means "lossless". DTS-HD Master Audio is a lossless codec.

What you were claiming is that you could put lossless audio on BluRay with Compressor...and you can't (although I have no idea why Adobe won't upgrade Encore to do that).

But...it may be possible with the workaround I mentioned. We'll see. It certainly won't have menus, though...bummer.

Granted, but I only said .dtshd were lossless, nowhere did I say that plug-in enabled you to encode DTS HD as a .cpt file.

I had been told that Compressor would take a .DTSHD file with it's internal BluRay burning - sorry, I was wrong.
I'm fully aware DTS cpt files aren't lossless and I never claimed that was the case.

Out of curiosity, what was that 5.1 AAC for Quicktime thing you were mentioning? Can't see how that would help with BluRay?