how to make stereo = 5.1, and vice versa.

[maark6000]

hi all, got a question for you about the equivalence if you will between 5.1 and stereo mixes.

suppose this hypothetical... a client has mixed a show in stereo, and now wants it in 5.1. He delivers to you a mono VO stem, mono Dialogue Stem, and stereo music and effects stems. How would you create the 5.1 mix? Specifically I'm interested in what levels (assuming ProTools here) you send to what speakers, what you would send to the rears.

I've found that different mixers have different, and sometimes very different ideas about how to do this, and so I'm wondering if that would hold true here as well, or is there a standard approach that is generally agreed to.

[neilwilkes]

What are the delivery specs asking for?

[Whitecat]

TC UnWrap. Job done.

[maark6000]

specs? they want a 5.1 mix on channels 1-6 of their HD cam master, not to exceed peaks of +10 db. L R C Lfe Ls Rs.

And let's say you didn't have any fancy plug-ins... had to do it manually with auxes and such.

[djgizmo]

If this is hypothetical then in then end it doesn't matter what plugins you or don't have.

[eoats]

I'll play along...
Stereo to 5.1

1. Mono voice tracks to Center. (I very rarely need/want to setup a verb send to create any surround AND even more rarely would I want to do any panning from a stem.)

2. Stereo FX to Left & Right, but be ready to pan towards the Center (an LCR panner usually does it for me).
Stereo Send to your favorite Verb for FX, returns on 5.0 panner & set that 50-75 % to Ls Rs respectively with the fader down at least -15db from painted zero.

3. Stereo Music to Left & Right, but be ready to pan towards the Center (LCR panner).
Stereo Send to your favorite Verb for Music, returns on 5.0 panner & set that 50-75 % to Ls Rs respectively with the fader down at least -15db from painted zero.

4. Mix to taste. In my book too much surround is worse than not enough. Of course a lot of things would be 'what ifs' .... sometimes you might toss in some ambient things or some odd pass by or other.


On the other way, much easier to go to 2 from 5.1;
Left & Right go to the sides.
Center to a 2 panner Left & Right.
Ls to Left at -4db, maybe lower.
Rs to Right at -4db, maybe lower.
Boom, Lfe panner to LR, -4dn most likely lower.

[gsilbers]

plugins?

u just need to route everything accordingly and thats it.

create a 5.1 bus and 5.1 monitor.

once u select that 5.1 bus youll have a way to route the elements to where u want it in the 5.1 mix.

dia and VO to the center.
M&E to the L and R. put a little in the surrounds. something comfortable. because it was not mixed in 5.1 id just send a tiny bit just for information
and send even less to the sub.

again, this is if the stems are from a stereo mix. better option is to mix it in 5.1 1st.

see the levels in the dialog/VO stem. see the average levels, if its
hitting -8db (and if its not a reality show )
then u have to adjust the mix. maybe a global volume change will do it. maybe not. its hard to tell w/o it in front.

id say do the routing 1st but only have L, C and R and listen and see how it feels. then just pan a little to the surrounds and sub.

as for what levels each speakers its up to what feels best.
i get stems from all major TV shows and movies from fox, nbc, Disney and sony and it depends on the mixer. sometimes it seems the show is in mono!
allinformation is 90% in the center speaker even music and just like 3db in the rest.
other times everything is in the front a(LCR)nd nothing in the LS rs or sub.

in the movie street kings for example, the percussion and stacc strings was panned to the L and R and the pads to the surrounds. very creative and cool . so the levels looked very different.


so the short answer is just route it and send about 3db of signal to the surrounds and -1gb or 2db to the sub.

btw.. most HD-sr masters specs say that no limiting should be apply to the mix. (its still done for the LTRT mix for the down conversions. )
but there are exceptions. spec land is funny and convoluted.

[stangroom]

I did a test a few months back on a series that was mixed in stereo. The network was debating re-releasing it in surround for their HD network, as well as DVD. After testing a few plug-ins and my own routing matrix version, I ended up deciding that Waves 360 Surround was the most solid recreation of my mix without having to remix too much. UnWrap I felt the big moments weren't big enough and so would have had to ride that stuff up more. My own matrixing, similar to the one listed above was good, but just didn't have as much life as the 360 Surround Tools.

Here's the secret…get the demo! It's like a 14-day full demo and it will save you a lot of time and headache. And the fact that you have the stems is really awesome for flexibility. Good luck!

chris.

[Rick Sanchez]

Depends on the budget and the program material and no matter what you do, check and double check in mono and stereo.

Rent a Penteo Surround processor from Design FX in Los Angeles. Barring access to that, there are a number of stereo to surround upmixers available. Some work better than others.

Waves, DTS Neural Upmix, TC Unwrap, reverb and delays.

Dialog Center
FX LR for the most part, and this is very dependent on the program material, but you might want to process it some ant put a bit in the surrounds or even the center for hard effects where you may want some extra punch.

MX process through Penteo and balance by ear. If it's a very open scene with lots of music and not a lot of dialog, you can bring up more in the surrounds.

Usually if it was mixed in stereo, I'd go very subtle in the surrounds.

[eoats]

Saw/heard demo of the Penteo and thought it shoved way too much into the surrounds for my taste.

http://www.penteosurround.com/

[originalscottyg]

Originally Posted by stangroom

After testing a few plug-ins and my own routing matrix version, I ended up deciding that Waves 360 Surround was the most solid recreation of my mix without having to remix too much. UnWrap I felt the big moments weren't big enough and so would have had to ride that stuff up more. My own matrixing, similar to the one listed above was good, but just didn't have as much life as the 360 Surround Tools.

Are you referring to the UM225/UM226 upmix plugins that have been added to the Waves 360 bundle?

[Rick Sanchez]

Originally Posted by eoats

Saw/heard demo of the Penteo and thought it shoved way too much into the surrounds for my taste.

PenteoSurround, Inc:

Penteo is very program dependent. If there is a lot of hard panned content with transients, it can be very distracting. Sometimes it works beautifully and other times it's too much. I've used it in the LCR mode to extract the center channel and then done what I would normally do with a stereo track to add some surrounds. The one thing I really do like about it is that there are no downmix artifacts.

Larry, do you work with Bruce Lacy and Bob Edwards up in the bay area?
Give them my regards.

[eoats]

Haven't seen Mr Lacey in a while. Bob is around quite often.

The Penteo didn't seem to make much of an impression & the price.... ouch!

[danijel]

Yesterday I've been to a demonstration of yet another upmix system - the UPM-1 by Soundfield. Yes, the surround microphone company - this is their first product not related to the microphone technology.

While I didn't hear enough to judge reliably, I like their concept very much:
- what goes to the surrounds is not determined by the position in the stereo image (like, far left stuff is not routed to Ls), but, instead, continuous sounds (read, BGs) are extracted and routed both front and back, while transient sounds all end up front.
- Another nice feature is that dialog/narration/commentator is routed to C with a little divergence to L and R, while loud transient sounds are routed almost equally to L C and R, thus giving a nice loud effect (this I did hear just fine).
- They also claim that it folds perfectly, and that folding was one of their main concerns, since stereo and mono compatibility is highly valued in the world of broadcast.

So, let's say, it's a dynamics-based spatial processor. Interesting, especially for their (seemingly) main target industry, which is broadcast - it's a reliable hardware unit that won't surprise you with things you don't expect, but still gives sensible surround with several dial-controls on the front, and preserves the original stereo image.

[loji]

I'm not a film guy ... but the UHJ was around in the early 80's I believe.

The UPM-1 is a new version of the same thing? Made more for 5.1 than stereo. (G- format)


Same Ambisonic technology though from my (limited) understanding.

Ambisonics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ambisonic UHJ format - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[stangroom]

Originally Posted by originalscottyg

Are you referring to the UM225/UM226 upmix plugins that have been added to the Waves 360 bundle?

Yussir.

chris.