Some advices regarding dialogue recording

[jujumies]

So.. I have quite long history with music producing and recording but lately I have been asked to work with field recordings as well. It sort of interests me as well - I wanna learn it...

So first of all movie dialogue recordings what you hear all the time in hollywood movies -how it is actually done / recorded? What kind of techniques?

As far As I know generally boom & close mic attached to actor? Am I right? Some info regarding how this kind of really intimate sort of movie dialogue sound is achieved -would be highly appreciated.

Simo

[sheetKnows]

Thats a really big topic
A good help would be to scavenge this forum

[mikevarela]

And read John Purcell's book - it's great and enlightening, at least on the post end. There's also a great book by Jay Rose on post and production sound, that might help too.

The key is a far as I can see (though there are many), is to let the crew know that sound is very important, that you can't shoot through plane-overs, car-bys and talking on the set. You need to be sure that what you got was good, not just half ass, because it'll all come back in cost in the ADR session, which - sorry to tell you is how most of the current Hollywood movies get that rich dialogue sound.
And of course there's time when it's almost impossible - think beach, airport, guerrilla shoot, city with traffic...etc

As far as the technical side of attaching mic's and booming, well maybe someone can jump in - Charles?

And practice at home with equipment and a friend before going live.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by mikevarela

it'll all come back in cost in the ADR session, which - sorry to tell you is how most of the current Hollywood movies get that rich dialogue sound.

I have said this before, and I will say it again.

THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!!!

They get that sound because the mixers are good at what they do.

Go watch the movie "Michael Clayton"
Great sounding dialog. i think there are 2 lines of ADR in the entire movie.

If a mixer is unable to get that "RICH" sound from production, then, and I don't want to sound like a d$ick, he's not a very good dialog mixer.

Simple.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Henchman

If a mixer is unable to get that "RICH" sound from production, then, and I don't want to sound like a d$ick, he's not a very good dialog mixer.

I'll agree about 80%. There are situations where it is next to impossible for the production sound crew to capture quality sound such as big action scenes - lots of pyro, set directions, wind & water machines, etc. - or very poorly chosen locations, neither of which are under the production sound mixers control. Then, of course are poor performances by the talent.

Tarrantino is a fanatic about quality production sound. "Inglourious Basterds" is 100% production sound by the lead and supporting cast. He will re-block, re-light and even completely re-shoot scenes to get the production sound perfect.

A couple of things certainly hold true; ADR performances are almost never as good as the on-set performance, and every dollar/minute you spend on production sound saves you ten in audio post.

[Henchman]

Bob, my point is, that the statement these movies sound great is because It's all ADR.
And I read it time and time again on forums

These are assumptions, and they're simply not true.

[mikevarela]

Henchman,

Maybe that came out not fully right.

Yes, a good production recordist is worth his/her weight in gold, and having been on set I can say that sometimes it's a miracle they got anything good.
Also true for a Dx editor, but there are times, many in fact that the adr cue sheets look like the script. No always (sorry for the blanket statement).

And on big productions, the sound is great becuase these are the best of the best out there getting it, with years of experience. Then, as you work your way down to indie, the quality of production tracks can diminish, calling for more looping and some very creative editing.

A good editor is one that has worked with it all, and has many tricks for solving these sometimes perilous situations, but there is a lot of adr still

[Henchman]

Mike, I disagree wholeheartedly.
Having mixed everything from features to reality tv, the only time I've run into problems have been with no budget movies.
They don't count.

The stuff I have seen that needs the most ADR, has been shot in eastern Europe, and most of the cast is redubbed because of bad accents and poor English.

Other than that, I stand by ny earlier statement.
Anyone making excuses for a bad sounding dialog mix, isn't a good dialog mixer.

There are always exceptions if course, things beyond our control.
But an indie movie can sound every bit as good as a major Hollywood feature.

[Big Andy]

^true.

Henchman is right.
Reasons for ADR include very bad location sound (meaning the giant fan set up to make it look like the actors were in a severe storm was a little loud), PA talking in the background of every single alt for a line (get off your GD phone), and in some cases the director can't get over how s/he thought the actor should've read a line.

Some of what we mixers are given to mix seems ridiculous when we get it, but with patience, time and a good ear the world will never know.

Post pre-dubs, a HP, LP, LS, HS and a notch filter can be more than enough to warm up your dialogue.

Good luck.

[jujumies]

ok... so if you guys get a dialogue recorded for lets say mainstream action movie -what kind of files you get? I mean for each actor is there generally boom mic and some sort of lavalier mic as well and then you combine there make the sound? I mean what is the material you generally work with when mixing?

Simo

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by jujumies

ok... so if you guys get a dialogue recorded for lets say mainstream action movie -what kind of files you get? I mean for each actor is there generally boom mic and some sort of lavalier mic as well and then you combine there make the sound? I mean what is the material you generally work with when mixing?

Simo

This topic can fill about 3 volumes the size of a phone-book. It´s a little bit like asking "how do you record a band?".

No offense but this is a huge field that is quite hard to anwser without writing a book. ;-)

[richam]

I think it would be a bit presumptuous to say that most Hollywood movies do or don't use 100% or close to 100% ADR. No one can truly say because the reality is no 2 films are done in the same way.

I can guarantee there are films out there with no ADR at all, but i can also say just as confidently that there are films with complete ADR.

I think the trick here (from a sound recordist perspective) is to just use your ears and listen to how your dialog is coming across in the final product. If it's not completely intelligible, then replace it. If there are planes flying overhead, replace it. If the dialog sounds spot on and you are happy with it then what else can be asked of you as a sound engineer?

[Henchman]

Ok, I have been a judge on the MPSE awards the last 3 years.
Dialog driven, dramatic movies used very very little ADR.
It's the action movies that use a lot of ADR, because of the nature of the way they're shot.
However, It's the dramatic dialog driven movies that I think we are talking about.
It's not like you can call yelling over explosions "Rich" sounding.

So, It's not being presumptions.
I am simply stating facts.

[jujumies]

Originally Posted by apple-q

This topic can fill about 3 volumes the size of a phone-book. It´s a little bit like asking "how do you record a band?".

No offense but this is a huge field that is quite hard to anwser without writing a book. ;-)

I understand the topics broadness and I'm not looking for detailed information how to make finished / polished film dialogue but just some insights. As a guy who has been living full timely with studio recordings for 5 years now I could tell in one post some general ideas how to record a band. I couldn't go into details cause that would take three books to cover but I could tell some micing techniques etc.

I was asked to do field recording for a comedy sketch and I would like to get really intimate sound for the actors. It will be filmed outside so I'm trying to figure out what would be the best way to achieve this... its not rocket science -that I know.

Simo

[minister]

Originally Posted by mikevarela

Henchman,

Maybe that came out not fully right.

Yes, a good production recordist is worth his/her weight in gold, and having been on set I can say that sometimes it's a miracle they got anything good.
Also true for a Dx editor, but there are times, many in fact that the adr cue sheets look like the script. No always (sorry for the blanket statement).

And on big productions, the sound is great becuase these are the best of the best out there getting it, with years of experience. Then, as you work your way down to indie, the quality of production tracks can diminish, calling for more looping and some very creative editing.

A good editor is one that has worked with it all, and has many tricks for solving these sometimes perilous situations, but there is a lot of adr still

While it is true that Production audio is a huge part of a film sounding good, to say that it is ADR that makes films sound good is pretty misguided. Many films I know about either have none, some, or a lot of ADR. The ones that have a lot can sound bad, the ones with none can sound great! I have worked on several films that would not have sounded better with ADR, they sounded good because of the skills of the mixer. Some ADR can be hard to fold in and make sound real.

Some of the richest sounding dialogue I have heard in my critical listening has been production audio. Both on films I have worked on and much larger budget European or Hollywood releases. Listen to some of Marti Humphrey's work. Or Joe Milner. Some decent budgets, some certainly smaller than Blockbuster budgets. Sounds good. Listen to American Gangster or Body of Lies. Both almost exclusively production audio and both sound fabulous!!

[jozzafunk]

Here's another angle - An answer to the question... MKH50 into 788t, 8 page scene running 8 minutes. 2 actors - Mic in the sweet spot about 50cm above their heads angling towards their chests crossing about 10cm in front of their mouths - the GT has about 20/80 mix of cos11 via lectro411 to my boom, This! is going to sound rich, it sounded gorgeous, I love the 50.

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Much like the accordion and the piano have the same basic keyboard layout but require completely different techniques to play, production recording and studio recording share some similarities, but require VASTLY different skill sets to do well. Good Production Mixers are VERY hard to come by, because of the skill set required.

Some things to consider:

1. Do NOT bang Zero on your recordings... Dialog recording can vary literally from a whisper to a scream, sometimes without your knowing - an actor can deliver a line as a whisper 3 times and then yell the same line on the next take. Being conservative on your levels prevents distortion. When recording a single boom, many mixers will record the second channel down 6db, just to be safe. Don't worry about the apparent "low" levels - mixers and editors would rather apply a little gain than deal with overcooked levels. Picture is also mixed at much lower peak levels than music.

2. You are now "in the room"... Unlike the studio, where that glass door/window separates you from the talent, you are now RIGHT THERE with them. This means first, you must be quiet. Sounds obvious, but I've dealt with lots of "crossover" folks who forget this simple fact. Secondly, you CAN'T be in the shot - sounds simple until you try it. Shadows, Boom poles, mics, you... all can intrude in the shot as you try and get good sound. A good production mixer is also a grip (lighting) and DP - knowing lights, angles and lenses to make sure he/she can get the mic where it needs to be for good audio, while avoiding anything in the shot.

3. YOU don't get a second take... In the studio if the mic's wrong, you stop, go in and fix it. If the guitar amp needs to moved, or the AC is making noise, same thing. On set, once the AD or director has called "ACTION" you'd better be damn sure you've got your act together. That means having the right mic, in the right position, with all audio problems within your control taken care of. Asking for a second take because YOU weren't ready will mean you won't be getting hired much. Which leads us to...

4. COMMUNICATE... Is there an AC unit that needs to be turned off? Is the best position taken by a light stand? Communicating with the crew and AD or Director (depending on the shoot) POLITELY AND PROFESSIONALLY about things in advance, will both result in a better sound and a much better working relationship. The same goes for communicating AFTER a take. If a truck went by audibly, or actors walked on each others line, the time to tell the Director/AD is right away, so they can decide whether to (hopefully) take it again, or live with it (sadly happens a lot).

5. Aim for CONSISTENCY... Unlike music, the odds of any take being used in it's entirety are small - every thing is comped and you aren't doing it - the picture editor is! Do your best to ensure that each take of a set-up is as consistent in tonality as possible. Which means keeping mic positions constant, and being aware of any background sound changes.

6. Two words... ROOM TONE. On every set-up do your best to get at least 30secs of CLEAN room tone. This will help the post process immensely. Two things to remember. First thats CLEAN room tone (no crew coughing, shuffling, talking etc) so you will probably have to record more than 30secs. And secondly - while most crews understand why they have to record room tone, almost all HATE it... (who really wants to stand around for a minute doing nothing when you're against a schedule) so be polite and professional at all times and communicate clearly when your recording tone...

7. Two more words... WILD LINES. Wild lines are lines that are recorded after the scene has cut. They are used when, for whatever reason, you can't get a clean read during action (props, wind machines, whatever). As soon as possible after the take, get the actor(s) to a quiet location on set and have them perform the scene again. The acoustics will match, the energy will still be there, and 90% of the time the sync will work because the actors are still in the rhythm. These save valuable ADR time, and usually work much better. As above, timely communication with the AD/Director as to who, how long and why will give better results.

8. You are now part of a sound team... In music, you are usually the only one involved, with the possible exception of a mixer at the end. In film, the production mixer is the first stage of an entire TEAM of editors, recordists, and mixers. So make sure your contribution can be WORKED with. Imagine if every drum on the kit was recorded by a different engineer... how would you track to insure that everything would work together? In film this means NO processing on record... NO Compression, preferably no limiting, and no EQ - although a little lo-cut/hi-pass is generally ok with mixers, but subtle is the name of the game. Don't do anything the folks down the line might have to undo.

As well as all this, booms generally sound better than lavs, shotguns are generally not as good indoors as short hyper-cardoids, and always keep your wallet with you!

Good Luck!

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by Sonsey@mac.com

Much like the accordion and the piano have the same basic keyboard layout but require completely different techniques to play, production recording and studio recording share some similarities, but require VASTLY different skill sets to do well. Good Production Mixers are VERY hard to come by, because of the skill set required.

Some things to consider:

1. Do NOT bang Zero on your recordings... Dialog recording can vary literally from a whisper to a scream, sometimes without your knowing - an actor can deliver a line as a whisper 3 times and then yell the same line on the next take. Being conservative on your levels prevents distortion. When recording a single boom, many mixers will record the second channel down 6db, just to be safe. Don't worry about the apparent "low" levels - mixers and editors would rather apply a little gain than deal with overcooked levels. Picture is also mixed at much lower peak levels than music.

2. You are now "in the room"... Unlike the studio, where that glass door/window separates you from the talent, you are now RIGHT THERE with them. This means first, you must be quiet. Sounds obvious, but I've dealt with lots of "crossover" folks who forget this simple fact. Secondly, you CAN'T be in the shot - sounds simple until you try it. Shadows, Boom poles, mics, you... all can intrude in the shot as you try and get good sound. A good production mixer is also a grip (lighting) and DP - knowing lights, angles and lenses to make sure he/she can get the mic where it needs to be for good audio, while avoiding anything in the shot.

3. YOU don't get a second take... In the studio if the mic's wrong, you stop, go in and fix it. If the guitar amp needs to moved, or the AC is making noise, same thing. On set, once the AD or director has called "ACTION" you'd better be damn sure you've got your act together. That means having the right mic, in the right position, with all audio problems within your control taken care of. Asking for a second take because YOU weren't ready will mean you won't be getting hired much. Which leads us to...

4. COMMUNICATE... Is there an AC unit that needs to be turned off? Is the best position taken by a light stand? Communicating with the crew and AD or Director (depending on the shoot) POLITELY AND PROFESSIONALLY about things in advance, will both result in a better sound and a much better working relationship. The same goes for communicating AFTER a take. If a truck went by audibly, or actors walked on each others line, the time to tell the Director/AD is right away, so they can decide whether to (hopefully) take it again, or live with it (sadly happens a lot).

5. Aim for CONSISTENCY... Unlike music, the odds of any take being used in it's entirety are small - every thing is comped and you aren't doing it - the picture editor is! Do your best to ensure that each take of a set-up is as consistent in tonality as possible. Which means keeping mic positions constant, and being aware of any background sound changes.

6. Two words... ROOM TONE. On every set-up do your best to get at least 30secs of CLEAN room tone. This will help the post process immensely. Two things to remember. First thats CLEAN room tone (no crew coughing, shuffling, talking etc) so you will probably have to record more than 30secs. And secondly - while most crews understand why they have to record room tone, almost all HATE it... (who really wants to stand around for a minute doing nothing when you're against a schedule) so be polite and professional at all times and communicate clearly when your recording tone...

7. Two more words... WILD LINES. Wild lines are lines that are recorded after the scene has cut. They are used when, for whatever reason, you can't get a clean read during action (props, wind machines, whatever). As soon as possible after the take, get the actor(s) to a quiet location on set and have them perform the scene again. The acoustics will match, the energy will still be there, and 90% of the time the sync will work because the actors are still in the rhythm. These save valuable ADR time, and usually work much better. As above, timely communication with the AD/Director as to who, how long and why will give better results.

8. You are now part of a sound team... In music, you are usually the only one involved, with the possible exception of a mixer at the end. In film, the production mixer is the first stage of an entire TEAM of editors, recordists, and mixers. So make sure your contribution can be WORKED with. Imagine if every drum on the kit was recorded by a different engineer... how would you track to insure that everything would work together? In film this means NO processing on record... NO Compression, preferably no limiting, and no EQ - although a little lo-cut/hi-pass is generally ok with mixers, but subtle is the name of the game. Don't do anything the folks down the line might have to undo.

As well as all this, booms generally sound better than lavs, shotguns are generally not as good indoors as short hyper-cardoids, and always keep your wallet with you!

Good Luck!

This is a great set of guidelines. Thanks.

[jujumies]

Originally Posted by Sonsey@mac.com

Much like the accordion and the piano have the same basic keyboard layout but require completely different techniques to play, production recording and studio recording share some similarities, but require VASTLY different skill sets to do well. Good Production Mixers are VERY hard to come by, because of the skill set required.

Some things to consider:

1. Do NOT bang Zero on your recordings... Dialog recording can vary literally from a whisper to a scream, sometimes without your knowing - an actor can deliver a line as a whisper 3 times and then yell the same line on the next take. Being conservative on your levels prevents distortion. When recording a single boom, many mixers will record the second channel down 6db, just to be safe. Don't worry about the apparent "low" levels - mixers and editors would rather apply a little gain than deal with overcooked levels. Picture is also mixed at much lower peak levels than music.

2. You are now "in the room"... Unlike the studio, where that glass door/window separates you from the talent, you are now RIGHT THERE with them. This means first, you must be quiet. Sounds obvious, but I've dealt with lots of "crossover" folks who forget this simple fact. Secondly, you CAN'T be in the shot - sounds simple until you try it. Shadows, Boom poles, mics, you... all can intrude in the shot as you try and get good sound. A good production mixer is also a grip (lighting) and DP - knowing lights, angles and lenses to make sure he/she can get the mic where it needs to be for good audio, while avoiding anything in the shot.

3. YOU don't get a second take... In the studio if the mic's wrong, you stop, go in and fix it. If the guitar amp needs to moved, or the AC is making noise, same thing. On set, once the AD or director has called "ACTION" you'd better be damn sure you've got your act together. That means having the right mic, in the right position, with all audio problems within your control taken care of. Asking for a second take because YOU weren't ready will mean you won't be getting hired much. Which leads us to...

4. COMMUNICATE... Is there an AC unit that needs to be turned off? Is the best position taken by a light stand? Communicating with the crew and AD or Director (depending on the shoot) POLITELY AND PROFESSIONALLY about things in advance, will both result in a better sound and a much better working relationship. The same goes for communicating AFTER a take. If a truck went by audibly, or actors walked on each others line, the time to tell the Director/AD is right away, so they can decide whether to (hopefully) take it again, or live with it (sadly happens a lot).

5. Aim for CONSISTENCY... Unlike music, the odds of any take being used in it's entirety are small - every thing is comped and you aren't doing it - the picture editor is! Do your best to ensure that each take of a set-up is as consistent in tonality as possible. Which means keeping mic positions constant, and being aware of any background sound changes.

6. Two words... ROOM TONE. On every set-up do your best to get at least 30secs of CLEAN room tone. This will help the post process immensely. Two things to remember. First thats CLEAN room tone (no crew coughing, shuffling, talking etc) so you will probably have to record more than 30secs. And secondly - while most crews understand why they have to record room tone, almost all HATE it... (who really wants to stand around for a minute doing nothing when you're against a schedule) so be polite and professional at all times and communicate clearly when your recording tone...

7. Two more words... WILD LINES. Wild lines are lines that are recorded after the scene has cut. They are used when, for whatever reason, you can't get a clean read during action (props, wind machines, whatever). As soon as possible after the take, get the actor(s) to a quiet location on set and have them perform the scene again. The acoustics will match, the energy will still be there, and 90% of the time the sync will work because the actors are still in the rhythm. These save valuable ADR time, and usually work much better. As above, timely communication with the AD/Director as to who, how long and why will give better results.

8. You are now part of a sound team... In music, you are usually the only one involved, with the possible exception of a mixer at the end. In film, the production mixer is the first stage of an entire TEAM of editors, recordists, and mixers. So make sure your contribution can be WORKED with. Imagine if every drum on the kit was recorded by a different engineer... how would you track to insure that everything would work together? In film this means NO processing on record... NO Compression, preferably no limiting, and no EQ - although a little lo-cut/hi-pass is generally ok with mixers, but subtle is the name of the game. Don't do anything the folks down the line might have to undo.

As well as all this, booms generally sound better than lavs, shotguns are generally not as good indoors as short hyper-cardoids, and always keep your wallet with you!

Good Luck!

Thanks a lot! Great advices!

Simo

[jujumies]

Originally Posted by jozzafunk

Here's another angle - An answer to the question... MKH50 into 788t, 8 page scene running 8 minutes. 2 actors - Mic in the sweet spot about 50cm above their heads angling towards their chests crossing about 10cm in front of their mouths - the GT has about 20/80 mix of cos11 via lectro411 to my boom, This! is going to sound rich, it sounded gorgeous, I love the 50.

Here as well... Thanks!

Simo