Mastering howitzers... any tips?

[airbornesound]

Hi everyone,

I recorded some howitzers and I'm having trouble getting the right mix and processing. I know some of you have extensive experience with recording and mastering guns so I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Basically, I used a 5 channel set up, about 200 meters away from the howitzers.

1 & 2 - (L and R) Nuemann 191 - this captured a crisp shot and conveys some good air/presence
3 - ( C ) dynamic
4 & 5 - (Ls & Rs) cardiod - facing 180 degrees away to catch the echoing thunder

Using 1&2 + the thunder of 4&5 + the kick of the dynamic (3) was promising. Some compression helped out as well but it's just not sitting right.

I've attached an interleaved sample of the raw tracks (please overlook the birds and BG... it's not mixed)

The problem is that the 'snap' is too prominent. The recording is a more-or-less accurate account of what I heard while recording, but I'm looking to roll back the snap and bring up the boom and thunder (ch 4 and 5) to make the howitzers sound more 'Hollywood'.

Any tips would be appreciated!

Cheers,
Paul

[a.finley]

Are you restricted to using these field recordings only?

For the "hollywood sound," I think you would layer some additional sounds to fill it out a little more. With all the mics at 200m, some frequencies are missing. Especially the boom.

Also, have you tried a multiband compressor? I could see the crack possibly killing the boom otherwise.

Love the thunder btw. That kind of stuff isn't so easy to fake! thumbsup

[charles maynes]

Howitzers are tough- I usually mic both close and mid field- the stuff in the recordings sounds "nice" but not immediate enough for closeup cannon blasts-

If you want to discuss some options in PM drop me a line....

[Denis Goekdag]

Charles is definitely the man to talk to for weapons ;-)

A multiband does sound like a reasonable thing to try, though. You could also try clipping/saturation/limiting type effects to chop off the short transient in the beginning and bring up the body. Also, some slight distortion that may be introduced by that kind of processing can help make sounds appear "louder".

Maybe something like the SoundToys Decapitator or Airwindows Loud or their emulated ADC clipper can help.

[georgia]

I apologize for this in advance...I just can't help myself... i tried to a week now, but I can't...

mastering Howitzers? two tips.

1. Ear plugs
2. Keep your head down.



cheers
geo


Charles - IS - the Man to talk to.

[airbornesound]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

I'll have an opportunity to record them again so I'll try a different mic set up.

I'm also going to see what I can pull out of the existing recordings using the processing suggestions here.

Cheers
Paul

[Rick Sanchez]

Charles has a ton of experience in this area so I always pay attention to his posts.

I have not tried it yet, but for close microphones, it may be worth trying a dynamic like an AKG D-112 or one of the newer microphones designed for Kick drum. They can take a lot of level and often have a little dip in the lower midrange, keeping the real boom and the 4k transients.

Anyone given these a go?

[kosmokrator]

I'd suggest two things:

1. Gladly accept Charles' offer for tips. You won't find anyone with more expert knowledge on that matter.

2. Try a fade-in on your soundfile. I just tried it and it works quite well.

3. Maybe add some omnis for extended low end when recoding again.

[airbornesound]

Thanks Rick, I have a few E835s... was going to try those out. Their basically knock-offs of SM57s I believe. I will ask around for AKG D-112... never tried it but worth testing out.

@kosmokrator
1. done!
2. great idea, hadn't thought about it!
3. yes, will try this too... I have 6 channels so I may be able to squeeze this in.

Thanks again everyone.
Paul

[ggegan]

Next time you record them, I'd try a relatively close up 421 and an old mono analog Nagra in addition to whatever you are using now. Let the meter slam, don't worry too much about distortion, but bracket the level over a number of shots just in case. You can transfer it to digital later. I guarantee that you won't need to worry about tape hiss. Oh, and be sure to leave the tape tail out to avoid print through.

[airbornesound]

Thanks Gary.

Haven't tried a Nagra yet but some friends have some tucked away. I'll ask around. Have heard it is great for guns and high SPL stuff. That and the 421 combo sounds promising. Will give it shot (pun intended).

Paul Virostek

[charles maynes]

the Nagra and Schoeps are the way to go.....

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

the Nagra and Schoeps are the way to go.....

You've got champagne taste Charles. That's a great combination.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by ggegan

You've got champagne taste Charles. That's a great combination.

Well. the preamps on the Nagra just seem to work great with them-

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

Well. the preamps on the Nagra just seem to work great with them-

I'm also a fan of analog tape saturation for big transients. Yes, it is distortion, but it really just kind of works for ridiculously loud sounds. In certain extreme situations you can get away with things that digital is much less forgiving about. Don't get me wrong, I love digital recording, but sometimes a little analog love is really helpful.

[charles maynes]

I am happy to use limiters prior to the A to D for that.... Analog distortion and tape compression is nice, but so is the much lower noise floor and expanded frequency response of the modern recorders.....

[ggegan]

Actually, there is a big caveat regarding analog recording that should be mentioned. If you are anticipating harmonizing or slowing the sound down radically you run the risk of bringing the tape bias frequency down into the audible range, which means you would have to notch it out after the fact. I used to occasionally run into that problem with sound design elements back before digital recordings were common.

[chrisj]

Originally Posted by Denis Goekdag

Maybe something like the SoundToys Decapitator or Airwindows Loud or their emulated ADC clipper can help.

Interesting- I can tell you specifically what mine do and how that would work in this context, because I've worked with that kind of noise- one of the impulse responses in my reverb pack is actually naval guns

I don't think ADClip would be useful here. It's basically a clipper with handling of the high frequencies to make them not harsh- since howitzers aren't super high frequency, what you'd get is plain clipping, SLIGHTLY softened. I don't think that's as useful.

Loud might be interesting. That one's another sort of saturation plugin, but it's more relative to what the signal's doing, and it'll tend to set sounds back in the soundstage and make them sound more big and saturated without bringing them forward. If I was doing this, it would be one of the things I'd immediately try- maybe it's more suited to post than to most music-mix situations. It does produce a dirty, overloaded quality, and you might be looking more for something compressed...

If you can use those (they're Mac AUs) you can use the Apple AU peak limiter- maybe try something like that to whack the onset transient off? Set it really really fast so it's more distorted and lets go almost immediately- might be your best bet, and it's free. Or any peak limiter that can be made to react so fast it has distorted qualities... you want to walk a line between limiting and straight-up clipping here, because the desired sound's loudness is so high that you might not want the result too clean and pristine. That's why I'd be trying Loud, or saturation plugins (such as Density and Drive, which are freebies)- I'd be trying to produce a distorted effect but without the distortion artifacts bringing the sound forward...

[undertone]

I'm by no means an expert at field recording but a few years ago I recorded fireworks with a MiniMe and a cheap AT822. I recorded at 96kHz and 24-bit, set the gain quite low and only used the limiting on the MiniMe to catch the very high transients leaving lots of dynamic range. The idea was to capture natural dynamics.

When I brought these tracks up in the studio they sounded like crap: short but sharp clear pops and lots of lower level stuff, nothing like the booming explosions I had witnessed. I was quite disappointed until I started compressing: it turns out that by heavily compressing the track I was able to get the track sounding like it did that night. It seems that's what our ears do when submitted to such high levels and the tape compression discussed above likely is similar (with additional warming distortion). It turned out sounding so well I ended up using parts of it in a theatrical commercial.

So definitely have a go playing with ridiculously high compression ratios; and certainly a multiband will help you shape that further.