Frame Rate Confusion...

[breaktheory]

I'm working on a project and getting video changes in different formats - The editor seems to choose between 23.976 and 29.97 fps arbitrarily when sending updated quicktimes. I can't seem to get consistency so I'm left to my own devices on this one.

I change the PT frame rate to match the incoming quicktime, which I believe only changes the frame grid in relation to the timeline (correct me if i'm wrong?)

I know this isn't screwing up the actual sync of my audio but it does screw up my frame grid. If I could nudge one frame at a time at 29.97, when I import the new picture at 23.976, the grid is thrown out of whack and I'm no longer moving between the same frames... Hopefully this makes sense to someone - I've been trying to get my head around this one for a while!

[robcap]

When I get fed segments like that, I keep a master project at the destination or final TC rate and always import the various segments in.

The oddities in the shift are probably only due to the drop frame in the 29.97? 23.98 in non drop of course...I always ask that the editors start each segment at the same TC as well.

Not sure if that helps!

[jssv]

yeah, sounds like mixing 24 frames footage with 30 fps drop frame timeline. I am looking at the clip inspector in quicktime player footage from an NTSC DVCam tape and it is NTSC 29.98 FPS.

[mikevarela]

the frame rates are interchangeable, though i understand the confusion in grid. ask them to behave...

and from the previous post, stay int he final release frame rate, it'll lock it down

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by mikevarela

the frame rates are interchangeable, though i understand the confusion in grid. ask them to behave...

and from the previous post, stay int he final release frame rate, it'll lock it down

Is the final always going to be 24?

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by robcap

When I get fed segments like that, I keep a master project at the destination or final TC rate and always import the various segments in.

The oddities in the shift are probably only due to the drop frame in the 29.97? 23.98 in non drop of course...I always ask that the editors start each segment at the same TC as well.

Not sure if that helps!

If I cut a file on the the 29.97 grid at the very last shot of a scene then change the frame rate... When I use a new QT, my cut no longer exactly syncs to that frame marker. do any of you convert your new QT to a master frame rate to maintain frame sync through the entire project?

[Sventeck]

do any of you convert your new QT to a master frame rate to maintain frame sync through the entire project?

... honestly, I make the picture department deliver everything correctly. Agree on a spec for your picture ahead of time, and simply don't accept anything that doesn't meet that spec.

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by Sventeck

... honestly, I make the picture department deliver everything correctly. Agree on a spec for your picture ahead of time, and simply don't accept anything that doesn't meet that spec.

That would be fantastic but unfortunately I'm not at a point (yet!) to lean on anyone that hard...so in my case, would you convert the frame rate or is it just a not that big of a deal?

It's more of an annoyance than anything but down the road on a bigger show with more people involved are there larger problems that editing back and forth between frame rates can create?

[mikevarela]

I'd stay away from transcoding, to many options that could screw it up.

I agree with previous post, ask them to standardize and deliver the correct rate ot you, otherwise you're job will not count for much.

It's not that hard for the editor to output a correct piece. In fact, they owe it to you if they want the job done right.

--if they can't help, try transcoding, but check the sync across the entire reel just to make sure, or conform to the new pic they giev you.

either way, it sounds like a can of worms

[georgia]

what they said.... but what you will notice is 29.97 and 23.97 do sync on the frame edges on the whole seconds, just not on the frames within seconds because both are the same speed and a second is a second. just different number of frames within the second.

cheers
geo

[djgizmo]

I'm always impressed with geo's answers. Simple, to the point, and informative.

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by georgia

what they said.... but what you will notice is 29.97 and 23.97 do sync on the frame edges on the whole seconds, just not on the frames within seconds because both are the same speed and a second is a second. just different number of frames within the second.

cheers
geo

thanks geo the frame rate can get confusing. is there a standard frame rate of video that's projected at mix stages?

[georgia]

no , no "standard".... remember you are dealing with film and video in an dub stage depending on the project.

I work mostly in 29.97, 23.976, or 24 for film. but you can run into PAL projects as well.

cheers
geo

[imgoinmad]

Originally Posted by breaktheory

That would be fantastic but unfortunately I'm not at a point (yet!) to lean on anyone that hard...so in my case, would you convert the frame rate or is it just a not that big of a deal?

It's more of an annoyance than anything but down the road on a bigger show with more people involved are there larger problems that editing back and forth between frame rates can create?

I don't think it's unreasonable to reject something if they switch mid-stream on what they're delivering to you. When we start a project, I always communicate with whomever is delivering the video to us as to what we need to do their project. If there are new cuts that they deliver which don't meet those specs, I kindly let them know that what they've given us isn't it the proper format.

It's not a matter of 'leaning' on anyone, but rather making sure you're not bending over for them when they're not giving you what you need. Why should you waste your time adjusting for their error? (I'm sure they don't want to be billed for extra time). I simply let them know we're unable to work on the cut unless it meets the proper spec (which we gave them from the start). Would they want you to deliver your audio in varying sample rates?

[Justas]

Post is a jungle, man. You will HAVE to learn to communicate with pic editors and request them to deliver the material within spec. There's no need to make a fuss about it, no need to be aggresive, just be polite and firm; sending video at different frame rates is a big deal and they just shouldn't be doing it.
My advice, DO NOT recode the video. Is not your department, and you never know what could go wrong down the road. Everyone to attend their own game, yours is sound.
Best of luck.

[Jfriah]

Very nice, Justas.

Jeff

[breaktheory]

thanks guys this has been very helpful to me - I didn't realize how unprofessional this practice of varying frame rates and codecs was - thinking in terms of billable hours is helpful and trying to adjust their output to meet my specs is a waste of time and trying on my nerves come delivery time

[soundfx]

Tell me about it. I get about ten video files a day, all for US broadcast, and I am amazed at the variance of frame rates and codecs. I get 23.97, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, Pro Res, MP4, Photo-JPEG, H264. It is absolutely maddening. We broadcast at 29.97, and I'm dealing with 10-20 different editors so getting everyone to align is a nightmare. In your case, I would just ask for what is needed and have them stick with it. Seems to be laziness and ignorance on the editorial side.