Tips on orchestral samples mixing

[Everbeatz]

Hi everyone,

I'm getting into mixing orchestral scores for the past year period of time.
Since I'm rather new at embracing this style of mixing approach I need some help and thoughts from experienced mixing engineers that could direct me.

What I receive to mix are scores made out of orchestral sample libraries and what I struggle with is to make those gel together better.

I'm using TC Reverb 4000 for the main reverb and IR's of various halls.

The questions are:

- gelling mix, making it more cohesive
- controlling dynamics, if there's a need for it
- riding faders
- setting reverbs in order to position sounds in space
- using efx
- using saturation
- using eq for low mids
- low/high pass filters

Any thoughts or tips regarding above mentioned issues would be more than welcome.

Also I have to mention that I'm big fan of Alan Meyerson work and how his mixes sound like.

Thanx in advance.

[musicjon]

Can you show any examples of your current work?

[Everbeatz]

Originally Posted by musicjon

Can you show any examples of your current work?

If you find that relevant I surely could although I should ask for permission since I'm mixing scores that are made for games.

I should add some of techniques I'm using currently:

- Big Orch Hall VSS4 from TC to establish the back of the mix, emulating "room mics", adding close mic'ed elements to get appropriate balance between blur and too close sounding tracks
- Bricasti IRs - Worcester Hall for drums/percussive tracks
- delays for Haas effect to pan/position strings and brass/horns tracks
- saturation on low/lowmid strings
- duplicating/parallel distortion on things to fatten them up(drums)
- using gutar amps/cabs to blend synth/electronic elements with the orchestra

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Everlast

Hi everyone,

The questions are:

1- gelling mix, making it more cohesive
2- controlling dynamics, if there's a need for it
3- riding faders
4- setting reverbs in order to position sounds in space
5- using efx
6- using saturation
7- using eq for low mids
8- low/high pass filters

I've done a lot of this type of mixing...Here's my $0.02,

1- This is based on the arrangement of the piece. If the parts don't fit together there is nothing you can do.

2- You want the piece to be VERY dynamic. The less dynamic it sounds, the less impact it will have. Calibrate your listening environment to -20dB pink = 85dBSPL and go from there. Move the speakers back away from you if you can. If you have a bigger set of speakers use those a lot and switch to the smaller speakers only occasionally.

3- YES. Ride them like crazy. Make the music MORE dynamic with the fader rides. Exaggerate the crescendos and decrescendos. Exaggerate the hits.

4 -Not really needed. But it depends on the samples used. some libraries have the "space" of the hall recorded in them already, others are bone dry. You'll need to figure out which ones need more verb. Also, automate the verb sends. Quieter passages can have less verb, makes them feel more intimate. Louder passages can have more verb, it will make them sound more epic.

Use verb sparingly though, unless you are looking for a special effect. Verb can make everything EXTREMELY ambiguous and indistinct. Play with the predelay and diffusion A LOT to keep the verbs from washing out the music.

5 -YES. Use effects. It depends on the composer, if he/she predubbed a lot of effects then you don't have to. But, those hans zimmer scores usually have a lot of effects on certain instruments. Electric Cello is a big one. So is Electric guitar and piano as well as drumset and drum loops. The effects can help fit the "non-traditional" score instruments into the traditional ones very well. But there are no rules except to say, "if it sounds good, it is good".

6 -YES. Distortion and Saturation are a big part of making the "big" parts sound "big". Don't use it across everything though. Pick one or two instruments. For me I like distorting low perc like Taikos and Grand Casas. But only as an effect for impact on the climax spots. If our ears "hear" breakup and distortion it will feel louder to us even though it isn't. A great way to get the "feel" of this insanely loud climax without clipping your DAW is to bring up some distortion on the bottom end perc on an Aux and fade it in with the climax. You'll be surprised at how the distortion will make it feel like it is getting even bigger.

7 -of course, but only when needed. How do you know when it's needed? Use your ears.

8 -With samples usually not, but there is no rules. If the orchestrator/composer didn't orchestrate correctly then you may need to roll off bottom end from the Contrabass and cello to fit with other things going on. I see that a lot with inexperienced composers. They'll put rock bass guitar and full orchestra together. But, they never bothered to check the bass part and Cbs/Clo parts against each other. Lots of min 9th, maj and min 2nd, Maj and min 3rds, and diminished 4th intervals between the rock bass and the string arrangment... joy! Try playing a maj 3rd down in the lower two octaves of a piano, it doesn't sound pretty. You need to make sure there is at least a 5th or octave between the parts. Most composers let the live bass player run wild and do his/her thing... and then expect you the mixer to "fix" it and make it "gel" while mixing/predubbing. It ain't gonna happen. So you either keep the bass guitar or low strings, and hp filter the other or turn them off completely.

A great mix starts with a great arrangement. It allows you to be more creative while mixing. If the arrangement has issues, then it limits what you can and can't do.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Everlast

1 - Big Orch Hall VSS4 from TC to establish the back of the mix, emulating "room mics", adding close mic'ed elements to get appropriate balance between blur and too close sounding tracks
2 - Bricasti IRs - Worcester Hall for drums/percussive tracks
3 - delays for Haas effect to pan/position strings and brass/horns tracks
4 - saturation on low/lowmid strings
5 - duplicating/parallel distortion on things to fatten them up(drums)
6 - using gutar amps/cabs to blend synth/electronic elements with the orchestra

1- that's fine.
2- ok, that's fine
3- I wouldn't. You are over thinking this. Hass effect? Really? That's only going to work for the person sitting right in the middle of the theater. so you are basically trying to mix so that 90% of the listeners will have a crappy experience? Forget the hass effect delay thing. Leave it for SFX and bullet flybys, etc. Just pan and be done with it.
4- I wouldn't unless in one specific spot for one specific effect, especially if you are doing point #6!!!
5- yup. That can be effective. Ride the parallel to create more dynamics.
6- Yup, as well as filters, chorus/flange, distorted dly, etc. But it's worth pointing out, if you are distorting the strings and/or brass, then how is THIS (dist the elect stuff) going to set the electronic stuff apart from THAT (dist the orch). If everything has distortion then no one thing will stand out as being "distorted". It'll just sound like you messed up and overloaded the stereo mix.

[Everbeatz]

Hey Derek

Thanx for the very detailed and useful response, very appreciated!

- about gelling - I noticed that orch.samples tend to be very bright although I don't want my mixes to sound very bright. If you take Hans Zimmer scores for example, you'll notice those sound like having a very drastic low pass filter, but yet sound very clear

- Haas effect - I read about it in one of previous GS thread where Alan Meyerson himself mentioned that he uses that kind of approach when positioning sampled orchestrations. I must admit it works from time to time, but not always.

- Reverbs - what I receive to mix are samples bone dry, so establishing an ambiance and positioning tracks in space is a must. Do you have some tips on early reflections/pre-delays and using those on various orchestra elements?

- Glad you mentioned parallel distortion for adding even more drama and volume at points everything reaches culmination.

- Low mids - I like those Zimmer scores that have strong foundation at low mids, but still doesn't sound cloudy or muddy.

I must say I'm a fan of modern approach when it comes to mixing orchestral scores, so I'm basically not afraid to try anything

Greetz

[gsilbers]

THE best place for that question is in here
Welcome to the VI Control Forum! Musicians helping Musicians!
almost everyone there does that for a living and the forum is specifically for film music so u can check out the mix discussion threads and get some tips.

Doesn't mean the above replaies don't work. They are good as well.

One thing which may throw people off is spreading instruments in the stereo field with no panning but with reverb. It's a trick used by some if the mixers at zimmmers studios. It's also on a book called mixing for sample orchestras which u can find In Alexander publishing (google it, it's a store speciizing in filscore stuff)

other trick is to use two reverbs. One for every instrument or section and other for the whole mix or orchestra.

The one for the section or instrumet will be a very short and the oposite for the whole orchestra.
If u have altiverb use the Todd ao ir.
There is a thread in vi control called "getting that sound with Todd ao ir" or somethig similar. U may have to do some digging.

Also but maybe out of reach... It's to rent a very high end reverb like m7 , t6000 or lex 480l for the overall reverb o the mix and use altiverb Todd ao ir Earl reflexions to add life amd relism to the sections or instruments
hope that helps

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Everlast

- Low mids - I like those Zimmer scores that have strong foundation at low mids, but still doesn't sound cloudy or muddy.

One thing to remember about Zimmer, he has a HUGE library of his own custom samples that you cannot buy anywhere. My friend used to work over at Remote Control and his job was to manage those sample libraries and make kontakt presets with them.

Then on top of that he always records live orchestra along with the samples.

As for panning, Hans usually records the orchestra sitting in the positions he wants them panned. I remember when he was talking about the Dark Knight, he had mentioned he ALWAYS records at this church in london. He mentioned in passing how he sets the orchestra up how he wants them in the stereo mix instead of the traditional concert setup. And then he spent some time talking about the story where he wanted this kind of call and response brass fanfare to go back and forth between the left and right sides. So, they hired TWO additional small brass section (I think it was just French Horns) and set them up on the balconies overlooking either side of where the orchestra was setup. As they were recording the score, those two brass sections did the call/response where they were supposed to and because of there positioning in the room, ended up being panned hard left and right in the room mics, just the way Hans wanted it. He also said, because they were up high overlooking the rest of the orchestra it added some more natural REVERB to them and made them feel more ethereal.

So... using a TC6000 is cool, and panning the tracks is cool, and so on... but realize that the person you are trying to emulate RECORDS his music this way, with ambience and everything. So to say, Use Haas effect to pan? Eh, not really. If you are dealing with a stereo room mic and you want the main instrument to feel like it's panned a little farther out than how you recorded it, then yeah, add a little delay and use the haas effect to help pan it MORE than it was when it was recorded. But that doesn't mean you should try to use the haas effect to pan stuff. It's the exception rather than a "rule".

You know, I believe Alan is a GS member. Isn't his username Ameyerson or something like that? You should shoot him a PM and see if you can get some answers straight from the source! Or maybe he'll chime in here?

[gsilbers]

My bad , I didn't mean hans zimmer mixes this way.
That's a whole other level. I meant his remote control studio with his minions
And btw he use his own propietery sampler and uses a hell lot f servers , my height of one rack units dells. I ve gone several times there and one time thy where changing servers... Wow!
He has 192k 10.1 samples or something crazy like that for his new custom made samples.

No no I am refering to the less furtunate Souls there that sometimes they have to mix samples amd maybe layer a few strings for some projects. Depends on the gig.. Though they hit to the higher end of gigs. Who am I kidding ...the best of gigs.
But it's an article I read somewhere a while bak about how some of the engieers at remote mixes projects that relied on Samples.

I only mentioned it as another option the op could research or try. The same technique is in more detph in that book I mentioned.
Buy it's the idea u mentioned , just with samples.
But it's only a sidenote. I think the key is not only good samples and good composing but also a mix of early reflexions and good tail reverb.Besides the usual of balancing, eq etc.
The early reflexions is very important or
samples like Vienna and lass which have a more dry sample approach but works either way.

[Everbeatz]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

THE best place for that question is in here
Welcome to the VI Control Forum! Musicians helping Musicians!
almost everyone there does that for a living and the forum is specifically for film music so u can check out the mix discussion threads and get some tips.

Doesn't mean the above replaies don't work. They are good as well.

One thing which may throw people off is spreading instruments in the stereo field with no panning but with reverb. It's a trick used by some if the mixers at zimmmers studios. It's also on a book called mixing for sample orchestras which u can find In Alexander publishing (google it, it's a store speciizing in filscore stuff)

other trick is to use two reverbs. One for every instrument or section and other for the whole mix or orchestra.

The one for the section or instrumet will be a very short and the oposite for the whole orchestra.
If u have altiverb use the Todd ao ir.
There is a thread in vi control called "getting that sound with Todd ao ir" or somethig similar. U may have to do some digging.

Also but maybe out of reach... It's to rent a very high end reverb like m7 , t6000 or lex 480l for the overall reverb o the mix and use altiverb Todd ao ir Earl reflexions to add life amd relism to the sections or instruments
hope that helps

Hey gsilbers, thanx for your input. I checked that place you recommended and it seems interesting to dig deeper into threads dealing with mixing this particular style. Thanx for that.

I also checked "Todd ao" ir, great scoring stage impulse response.

[Everbeatz]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

So... using a TC6000 is cool, and panning the tracks is cool, and so on... but realize that the person you are trying to emulate RECORDS his music this way, with ambience and everything. So to say, Use Haas effect to pan? Eh, not really. If you are dealing with a stereo room mic and you want the main instrument to feel like it's panned a little farther out than how you recorded it, then yeah, add a little delay and use the haas effect to help pan it MORE than it was when it was recorded. But that doesn't mean you should try to use the haas effect to pan stuff. It's the exception rather than a "rule".

You know, I believe Alan is a GS member. Isn't his username Ameyerson or something like that? You should shoot him a PM and see if you can get some answers straight from the source! Or maybe he'll chime in here?

I'm aware that Hans Zimmer work in million dollar environments hence his sound is rather distinct than ours, ordinary mortals

What I'm trying to do mainly is to gather as much useful info as i can get to improve and evolve my own mixing of this particular style

By the way Derek, I checked your stuff you did for Megatrax - it sounds great!! Congrats!