'modest' HD Camcorder for creative work?

[valis]

I'm looking for a camcorder that can provide 1080 (pref 1080p) quality video, decent low light performance, probiably will get some use at music events so grain is probably a concern as well as white balance in dark conditions.

On the 'upper' side of what I'd looked at so far was the Sony HDR-CX550V & Panasonic HDC-TM700K. Both are within 50-100 of each other most places I look. Amazon noticed I was looking and also offered me a full spread of Panasonic models claiming "1080 HD" support in an email (HDC-SD600K for $599, the TM55K for 466 and the TM15K for $257.) Quite a spread of prices no way to determine (aside from that camcorder comparison site and reading specs & these forums) where to delineate between them for my uses. I don't mind having something that I can use for at least 2-3 years and paying for it, but every bit saved would probably get applied to the projection rig that I'm also assembling.

Ie, I'll be purchasing a modest HD camcorder setup here (tripod,extra battery,accessories etc) as well as an HD projector, screen and a few monitors on credit cards to undertake a few upcoming projects. While I wouldn't mind a Canon DSLR or entry level 'pro' camera I can't afford to spend $2-5k atm so the pro hd cams are out of bounds for the moment.

I have used SLR & video cameras since the early 90's and even spent time working in post production (doing 3d and graphics) so I don't mind having manual control but it's not always necessary (auto features aren't bad.) What I don't want is a complete loss of manual control (in the event the camera is doing something I don't want) or automatic stuff added that doesn't work or isn't useful.

I've got Macs & PC's here, specifically two 2008 era Xeon rigs (Mac Pro & Win7 Xeon) as well as a 17" Macbook pro (pre-unibody) and am not worried about needing an SD card slot adapter or playback/codec issues as long as the source codec is supported by mainstream software. Some portion of what I intend to do with this will be delivered in a variety of formats anyway. I'm familiar enough with Adobe, Sony & Apple software that I'll use whatever works best with the source footage & take that into other applications & editing environments as needed.

Just looking for input on the models from Sony & Panasonic sub $1k I suppose...and I don't mind spending a lot less but don't necessarily have to either.

[musikwerks]

I have a Canon HV20 which records to HDV format tape. I use it for home movies etc.

I recently decided to archive all my home movies to HDCam SR... because I can basically. Loaded them all into the edit suite and looking back at it on a true HD CRT monitor was very impressed with the quality... for what it is, a $1k camera.

Just a thought.

[valis]

I've had HD & HDV cams before. The market seems have segmented more compared to what I remember from the last 2 times I've gotten a camcorder. I haven't owned one in 2-3 years and don't really need the longer storage time for tape, I doubt I'll shoot many sequences that exceed 15 minutes (if they even come close to that) for what I have in mind, and when length is a priority it's easy enough to dial the settings down. Honestly I had been thinking over the last few years that it makes more sense to get a DSLR instead of a handicam, then never purchased anything.

Actually while I am sitting here, it occurs to me that it's worth mentioning I've also debated getting the Canon EOS 550D or a 1080p capable DSLR. The problem there is that with 1-2 decent lenses I would also quickly run up a bill of accessories. At that price there's the new Sony camcorder with interchangeable lenses (and close to the Canon EOS 7D cost.) Here's a different tact then on the overall question, help me decide if there's a model in the Sony/Panasonic range of camcorders (sub $1k) that is compelling enough to skip spending the money on a Canon EOS T2i/550D, Canon 7D or Panasonic DMC-GH1 plus lenses. Action oriented usage certainly favors the camcorder, but I will probably do a lot of a lot of tripod based static camera positions to minor pans.

[Dustin Moore]

If you really need low light performance you might want to think about
the 1080i 3-CCD cameras like the HVR-Z1U over a more current CMOS
camera unless you plan to light the environment for filming with a CMOS
camera.

In either case, proper lighting really helps. The band and the live audience
might not like it though.

[Pat]

Canon HF 10

[valis]

Originally Posted by Dustin Moore

If you really need low light performance you might want to think about
the 1080i 3-CCD cameras like the HVR-Z1U over a more current CMOS
camera unless you plan to light the environment for filming with a CMOS
camera.

In either case, proper lighting really helps. The band and the live audience
might not like it though.

The HVR-Z1U is lovely (as are many of the Sony camcorders in that range) but a tad higher than I was looking to spend @ $3199.00. Now if I could get something that allowed me to be productive enough to need an upgrade next year....

[Steab]

Many Dslr cameras are great tools for hd video recording. The image quality and sonics are far superior than those on most camcorders, plus you get that filmic look.

[tsvisser]

I have a soft spot for the new DSLR / hybrid shooters, as they are a great value. (or more likely, camcorders are sort of a stagnant bunch, not really offering competitiveness)

Panasonic DMC-GH1 is IT! 4/3 sensor and access to really great lenses, either 4/3 or u4/3, or almost anything else with an adapter. There is a firmware hack that overcomes the weak factory codec, amongst many other things.

Canon 5D is great if you need a full frame camera, extreme DoF, but it line skips and has some pretty severe artifacts under certain conditions. Also $$$.

Canon 7D uses APS-C sensor, is actually better than the 5D in many respects due to the better sensor to codec process, but a smaller sensor.

Canon T2i is for all intents and purposes equal to the 7D when it comes to video performance, but being the budget non-professional platform, is not quite as nice or as durable.

[Rick Sanchez]

I have a Panasonic AG-HMC150P shoots in 720 or 1080 onto flash memory. XLR Line or Mic inputs and does a great job. Shoots in the AVCHD format and I transcode it to AppleProRes for editing. They have a number of cameras in this line.

Panasonic AVCCAM

[valis]

I could stretch my budget to accommodate an HDSLR (HDDSLR?) but I don't think that Panasonic (or the similar Sony models) are within my budget atm.

In fact, while I don't expect cinematic results without a large investment overall in kit, I'd have to say I'm being persuaded away from the TM700 by this video:

http://vimeo.com/1420964

& his accompanying text: http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/12/12/...d-canon-dslrs/

At least for the uses I have in mind even the 12min recording limit for the 7D @ 1080 wouldn't matter much. It's more about the differences between the Canon T2i, Panasonic DMC-GH1 & Canon 7D. GH1 seems like it's more suited to video but I don't know anything about panasonic lenses (I know Nikon/Canon a tiny bit for SLR/DSLR ranges.)

[BeK$]

Originally Posted by Steab

Many Dslr cameras are great tools for hd video recording. The image quality and sonics are far superior than those on most camcorders, plus you get that filmic look.

Ive had a friend use one. Looks great.

[renec]

IMO you should go with a DSLR for a few reasons:

1) you're probably going to be comfortable running dual system, so for pure visuals you get more bang for the buck by a mile.

2)you can incrementally improve your visuals by purchasing better glass in the future. You also have the added benefit of continued use of the lenses when you upggrade your body in the future.

3)storage and battery systems are widely available

4)cool accessories like followfocus and stabilizers are widely available. (and remember that you can't do follow focus or interchangable lenses on a camcorder)

5)dslrs handle low light situations MUCH better than camcorders because they have a much larger sensor. This means that the individual pixels are larger, which allows the dlsrs to capture cleaner video before compression.

6)the dslrs have more manual functions sitting on the body of the camera than camcorders do. On my 7d I can set it up for dial control of ISO, Fstop, and shutter speed - all of which must be set inside of a menu on a camcorder in that price range.

7)the extension of that is that you have more manual control options on a dslr. On my friends canon vixia hfs100, he pretty much has to run with auto gain control and auto focus because there's no real way to access those with the hardware - you have to dig through menus. My 7d can run those settings on auto as well, but at least I have the option of controlling them manually - giving me much more control over how my shot looks.

--

The major drawback to the dslr rigs is that running audio to them is not an option, which means more time spent in post. Good shooting techniques and pluraleyes if you're working in final cut can help with that though.

The other major limitation is clip length - the dslrs won't go over about 11 minutes because of the file size limitation of the FAT32 file system that most adhere to. This means that you can't just lock one off on the stage of a show and let it capture for an entire set - you have to break each song or two into its own clip.

The camcorders do, but the way they do it is by auto snipping the files and referencing them together with metadata. That's fine if you 're just going to import the whole the whole thing into the edit, but if you're looking to just import segments then final cut (if you're editing in that) gets really buggy about setting in and out points during the log and transfer process on long clips.

--

for a good reference on what a dslr is capable in video mode, check out the zacuto great dslr shootout.

--

I'd probably recommend a canon t2i to you. Its in your price range, it has the low light capability of a dslr, and when you swap it for a 5dmkII or whatever in the future, you can still use all of the accessories and lenses that you've built up into your kit.

[valis]

That's exactly what I'm thinking. It's interesting that the Panasonic DMC-GH1 inherits the iA & destabilization from the TM700 etc line of camcorders, but a Canon on a tripod or nice rig for my shoulder should create comparable results and not having the DMC-GH1 be a true DSLR seems a drawback for photographic uses. 7D with a few nice lenses, backup battery & etc will certainly fill up a single CC all by itself, a 550D/T2i would leave room for some of the other stuff I need to acquire soon.

[renec]

The panasonic is certainly a good option as well - especially if the image stabilization is built into the body. Also, the firmware is much more hackable (if you're into that thing) and the system has a good community built around it as well.

Here's what that rig is really capable of:

optimus prime

Also, it looks as though panasonic has already gone down the road of taking the dslr sensor and lens mounts and putting them into a proper camcorder body, meaning that an initial investment in the GH1 glass and accessories can eventually be transitioned over to the higher end camcorders.

Canon and Sony will probably follow suit soon enough.
--

The canon systems leave the image stabilization to the lenses instead of the body, which means you can have IS with good canon glass, or you can use nikon glass without IS if that's what you have available to you.

At the price point, the t2i is a very legit camcorder by itself. I went with the 7d because of the superior still capability (and the ability to carry a bigger battery), but I also had the budget for it, and it was still a pretty close choice because my primary usage is video.

[Fran Guidry]

I'm saving the a GH1, but right now I'm shooting a Sanyo Xacti HD2000. It has more manual control and better low light performance than anything near its price. It's quirky but capable. Shoots 1080P as well. It may be hard to find, though. B&H has them marked as discontinued. Panny bought Sanyo, things may be changing a lot at Sanyo.

Fran

[valis]

I like that there's a good community around the panasonic but as this overall market is just starting (HD-DSLR) the canon upgrade path seems more appealing than the Panasonic. I would actually love to get the 7D now, but given that it's close to $1600 body only I could grab it and a spare battery and only have enough left on my emptiest CC for a lesser lense. I still have enough available funds to grab a projector but the T2i sure does leave a larger margin...

Basically if I got a 7D I'd probably have to get a 720p DLP projector, am eyeing a Viewsonic PJD6531w at ~$700 if I go for 720p. Get the T2i and I can splurge on a BenQ W1000 or something a bit better still, and still have some cash to spare on the cards or could grab some additional PA gear that I need too.

Am going to be mulling this over for a few more days since my potential buy-in has gone up markedly since I started down this path. But I do think even the 550/T2i allows me to buy into some nice L-series & IS lenses now and wait for the 7D mkII or 5D mkII down the line.

[Steab]

If you can afford it, go for the gh1 and don't look back! I would, as the canons aren't cheap!

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by valis

I'm looking for a camcorder that can provide 1080 (pref 1080p) quality video, decent low light performance, probiably will get some use at music events so grain is probably a concern as well as white balance in dark conditions.

On the 'upper' side of what I'd looked at so far was the Sony HDR-CX550V & Panasonic HDC-TM700K. Both are within 50-100 of each other most places I look. Amazon noticed I was looking and also offered me a full spread of Panasonic models claiming "1080 HD" support in an email (HDC-SD600K for $599, the TM55K for 466 and the TM15K for $257.) Quite a spread of prices no way to determine (aside from that camcorder comparison site and reading specs & these forums) where to delineate between them for my uses. I don't mind having something that I can use for at least 2-3 years and paying for it, but every bit saved would probably get applied to the projection rig that I'm also assembling.

The TM700 is getting a lot of attention for its low light performance and wide range of manual control, the others not so much.

And related to video on DSLRs, be sure you evaluate the shot time of the various alternatives. The Canons have limits like 10 minutes per shot, along with issues with sensor overheating. The GH1 will shoot until the card fills up or the battery runs down. The GH1 also has advantages in the range of lenses that can be mounted with adapters.

Fran

[FBarre]

Could be of interest: iPhone 4 film - "Apple of My Eye" on Vimeo

[valis]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

The TM700 is getting a lot of attention for its low light performance and wide range of manual control, the others not so much.

And related to video on DSLRs, be sure you evaluate the shot time of the various alternatives. The Canons have limits like 10 minutes per shot, along with issues with sensor overheating. The GH1 will shoot until the card fills up or the battery runs down. The GH1 also has advantages in the range of lenses that can be mounted with adapters.

Fran

Well I'm not shooting sports events or entire musical performances, so the length of my shots will just dictate to some degree what I do with it. Really a lot of what I'll be doing to generate income with it initially is likely to be 30 seconds to 5 mins.

Basically I in realizing that a DSLR allows me to what I wouldn't be able to do without a much larger investment in professional camcorder gear (lenses etc), I am really more interested in my 'creative options' with each choice here. I'm asking myself if the Gh1 made sense just because it 'fit' what I had been looking for in a camcorder. Certainly the lense looks great (better than the Canon kits i think?) especially for video work.

So I started looking at the Canon gear and much of what I see discussed on photography & videography/film forums are about features that adhere to a certain workflow. Ie, how well the source codec works in a chosen editing environment, mini-hdmi or composite outpuit, sound sync etc. And while I actually have a small personal audio studio that can certainly benefit from additional sync, that's not my primary concern right now either. Perhaps I should think more about that...

But what I'm really wondering at the moment is what style of shooting I'd be favoring in opting for T2i over a GH1?

[renec]

I don't know the GH1 very well, but from what I read over at Philip Bloom's website the big diff between it and the t2i is the ability to set it up for film-looking video.

The canon allows for custom color profile management, and it has a few other settings that allow you to dial in the film look a little more directly than the GH1, unless you hack the GH1's firmware. These things include backing off the sharpness and contrast to flatten the image so that you can better manipulate it in post.

In the first of the Zacuto tests Bloom commented on how the GH1 footage ended up looking sharper than the others because he couldn't dial in the setup for more of the film look. The other DPs liked the sharpness, but conceded that its a very build in "look" and would have appreciated the ability to alter it as needed.

[valis]

I've seen the Zacuto tests and it seemed to me the GH1 often had a color-cast (like the magenta on her jeans) and the 'sharpness' they saw seemed like edge-enhancement (though that might just have been the streaming version of the video.) You can also see the loss of low-level data in the jeans shot and the shot with the couch in the 3rd shootout. I should probably just move on from here to what rig, tripod, lenses and overall kit to get for a T2i...

[Fajita]

You can get interchangeable lenses for camcorders. Letus and RedRock micro make 35mm adapters for Panasonic, sony and cannon cameras that have follow focus, matteboxes and all types of accessories, handles/rails etc.

I'm still using my Panasonic DVX100b. shoot anamorphic with an adapter lens and it looks great upscaled.

[l.sicilian]

Originally Posted by Pat

Canon HF 10

+10

To the OP; the BIGGEST problem with pro-sumer camcorders is low light performance.

The Sony PD170/150 (and non XLR versions VX2100/2000) are still the kings of low light performance in this price range, they are not HD cams though.

[djgizmo]

Like others have said... you have to choose since you're on a budget.

A) Low light performance
B) Manual Controls
C) External / Dual Audio
D) Ease of use
E) Cost


What kind of creative work are you looking to use this camera for specifically? If its for all day shoots (like trailers, short films, music videos, etc) then the automatic pro-sumer cameras like the Sony HDR-CX550V are out.

I own the Sony HDR-CX500V (which is the older brother of the 550v) and the Sony cameras ARE nice... but small. I have big hands and I have trouble staying comfortable with the camera for long periods of time. Now I didn't buy my camera solely for projects, its used for family purposes and the low light for the CX500v is awesome, as well as the motion compensation is silky smooth. My wife loves it. (It's fully automatic) I use it for blog videos and small creative ideas that I like to test out. If that's what you want the 550v for, then by all means, its a great buy. The 2 major difference between the 500v and the 550v are A) Mine only records up to 1080i /60. While the 550v can record up to 1080p/30 (I think) B) the 550v has an external mic jack, however I believe its a 1/8" jack which makes it a pain to use common pro shotgun mics with it mounted.

If you're trying to stay under $1500 and you're trying to buy new... a DSLR is about your only 'best' choice for manual control & low light.

I've also have experience with the HMC150 (Panasonic I believe) and it does very well in low light, however new the cam runs $3000+, but used you might be able to pick it up for $1500. Plus either one can use a plethora of nice lenses.

Anyways, hope it helps you in the right direction.

[tom_lowe]

The new Sony NEX VG-10 is worth a look. APS-C sized sensor, so low-light ability like D-SLRs and shallow DoF, but no 12 minute limits and handles like a normal camcorder.

Only 50i or 60i depending on where you're from, but I suspect new models with 23.98P, 25P and 29.97P will be out soon.

Worth a look, shame it's only 24mbit/second.

NEX-VG10 | Interchangeable Lens Handycam Camcorder | Sony | Sony Style USA

[valis]

NEX VG-10 is nice due to the interchangeable lenses, but the camera itself is already pushing my budget so I certainly wouldn't be dropping 3-4k in lenses anytime soon if I went that route.