DenOfGeek.com reports/comments on the growing problem of inaudible dialogue...

[Whitecat]

Discuss away!

The rising problem of inaudible dialogue - Den of Geek

[Rick Sanchez]

It's bad enough to pay $9 for a feature film and the dialog is unintelligible, but worse is the nightly barrage of unintelligible dialog on prime time television.

Now I can rationalize bad dialog on reality TV where there are no budgets and in many cases, yesterday's barristas are producing and doing production sound, and re-recording mixers are often in a 10x10 room with a mouse and a pair of $300 speakers, but for prime time and major cable network dramas? Even after rewinding the DVR and turning up the volume a few notches, there often is jibberish coming out of the speakers.

I don't know if the problem is incompetent re-recording mixers, producers, production sound mixers, just not giving a damn or if this is happening somewhere in the broadcast chain, but I hope this trend is dealt with sometime soon.

[johndykstra]

Man.

This issue needs addressing asap!

It's bad enough for those of us with normal hearing. Imagine being down 15-20 db @ 3k and trying to understand whats going on on CSI Miami. Impossible.

[bkbirge]

My wife is deaf in one ear so when we are watching TV we always have the subtitle option on. I turned it off one time when she was away visiting family. My hearing is good but that was an eye opener, dialogue is very difficult to hear on most things I see on broadcast TV or rented DVD's too. I turned the subtitles back on. I've thought there's been a dialogue mixing issue on a lot of stuff for years.

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

It's bad enough for those of us with normal hearing. Imagine being down 15-20 db @ 3k and trying to understand whats going on on CSI Miami. Impossible.

As if low dialog is the only reason to not watch CSI Miami.

-Dan.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by iluvatar

As if low dialog is the only reason to not watch CSI Miami.

-Dan.

fair enough. Not a fan either, but I do sell hearing aids, and this is the MOST complained about program.

[Bill@AudioVision]

What I'm finding lately after watching a few episodes of season one of 'Lie to Me' on Netflix (streaming), is how much better the audio is compared to the broadcast version (OTA antenna - no cable/dish/etc.) I don't have anything fancy at home for TV audio, but it is distinctly better, especially dialog. The mixes sound more open, detailed, and dynamic. I'd love to know what they're using for the audio - an original stereo mix, or the +2 of a 5.1+2 Dolby E stream?
And yes, actors are mumbling more thanks to Carlton the Doorman...

[musikwerks]

I've just finished picture editing a reality series. We produced it in HD this year but there was not the budget to do a 5.1 mix (the broadcaster didn't want to pay for it) so we stayed with a 2.0 mix. Hearing the mixes in my suite vs hearing them off air was interesting. The vo/dialgoue went down a few db in comparison to the mix supplied. I'm wondering if they ran it through some quasi 2.0 -> 5.1 conversion process which results in the center channel coming up lower?

It also make sme wonder if it's not necessarily the post chain that's causing the issues mentioned with dialogue.... maybe it's the ingest/conversion/encoding process at the networks?

[philper]

I'm sorry to say that on dramatic shows a good chunk of the problem is bad ACTING. Poor diction, no projection, Method Mumbling etc etc. Add indifferent location scouting (re sound) and even a good sound crew will have difficulties. Post can only mitigate those problems short of ADRing whole scenes, which is not going to happen in most episodics.

Philip Perkins

[soundboy]

I agree with Philip. I encountered this when I worked in theatrical sound. It was hell to get the actors to project to at least the 5th row! I'd tell them, "get it out to the 5th, and I'll take you to the rest of the theater." There is only so much gain before feedback. Also, if this thread were talking about film mixes listened to in actual theaters, I would think there is a problem. But since most of the complaints seem to be leveled at broadcast, all I can say is that there are so many variables between the final mix, and what finally reaches your TV, who can say what the problem is. I once had a show I mixed played on Showtime, and Showtime West at the same time. Showtime West sounded like my mix, Showtime had no high end and sounded garbled. It's out of my hands at that point.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by philper

I'm sorry to say that on dramatic shows a good chunk of the problem is bad ACTING. Poor diction, no projection, Method Mumbling etc etc. Add indifferent location scouting (re sound) and even a good sound crew will have difficulties. Post can only mitigate those problems short of ADRing whole scenes, which is not going to happen in most episodics.

Philip Perkins

Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing!
Philip nailed it here.
CSI Miami = Caruso-isms and the cast that keeps pace with him.

Throw in some mumbly actors / quiet-talkers, combine it with noisy location sound, compress the mix for broadcast and there you have it.

Starts with the humans, goes through the technology and sometimes you're still left with junk.

Jeff

[funkgunk]

I mix a lot of live tv,,,,and we started seeing problems poppin up all over the place that didnt relate to what was leaving my room/or on our air. the problem turned out to be that a lot of "enginners" a stations, cable joints, etc
are going to NAB, getting hammered and sold digital boxes that they have no
idea what they do----install. they never listen to the shit anyway,,,so they dont care. sorry first post here

[BIGBANGBUZZ]

Maybe some of the problems also lie in some drama's are mixed as they are being mixed like they were a film? too much dynamic range.
Mixed on a 5.1 system on massive speakers in a big room.

Maybe it would be best to mix drama made for TV in smaller rooms and also maybe the main mix should be stereo, leave the 5.1 for the DVD release.
95% of people are listening to a crappy speaker out of there LCD TV.

MY ex is always complaining she cant hear dialog very well out of her LCD TV.

I have always thought a 2.1 standard would be a better idea for TV, but ill leave that for another topic.

Drama TV including CSI sounds fine on my system but I have reasonable 5.1 set-up.

I remember when i worked on music you would always make sure the mix sounded fine on a crappy cassette player in someone's car stereo.
Maybe that method should be applied to sound for TV.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by BIGBANGBUZZ

leave the 5.1 for the DVD release.

From personal experience, I would HATE if this were to occur.

I sell hearing aids for a living. The number one complaint is television. You see, with a hearing loss, particularly one that goes untreated over time, something called "auditory deprivation" starts to kick in. Essentially, what this means, is after years of the brain not receiving information at say 4k, it stops looking for that information. Someone with a hearing loss that's been present for a number of years will start to lose clarity of speech. It's not rare that I get a patient in who can only repeat 50% of a phonetically balanced word list... regardless of the volume. This is in a quiet environment. Toss into the mix the masking effect of background noise (music, clapping, live environment) and this percentage drops even further.

I usually recommend a 5.1 system to these folks. For those who could really care less about anything but speech, I often recommend they really only need the center channel, but most will opt rather to set it unrealistically higher in balance. This has met great success, particularly since the switch to digital broadcast.

What would be great, is if the FCC or who ever is in charge of such things, would offer this as a setting, much like CC... so it could be built into existing sets in the menu options.

[BrettMorello]

Funny how CSI Miami is an example.

I am Dutch speaking, and all American shows are being subtitled here. We often spoke among co-workers how in gods name those Americans can understand all the dialogue, and CSI Miani is one of the returning examples. Really, does this Caruso guy even opens his mouth? I actually pity the mixer who has to mix that.

I understand English very well, so I have no problems watching DVD's at home without the Dutch subtitles, but I always put the English one on.

[BIGBANGBUZZ]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

From personal experience, I would HATE if this were to occur.

Same here, but the facts are only a tiny percentage of the world own a 5.1 system.
I personally don't understand why people will spend thousands on a massive LCD or Plasma and not get a decent sound system to match.

[TiagoJSilva]

Originally Posted by BIGBANGBUZZ

Same here, but the facts are only a tiny percentage of the world own a 5.1 system.
I personally don't understand why people will spend thousands on a massive LCD or Plasma and not get a decent sound system to match.

It's the Wife Acceptancy Factor, of course!

A Panel TV has a huge WAF compared to a big CRT, so what do you think that happens with 5 speakers all around the room, the cables to feed them and a big box for the subwoofer, all cluttering up the living room?

Even if they stay in the room, they'll get vases of flowers on top, to liven them up.