Dynamics and dialog

[Mike Caffrey]

For the people who mix films/tv everyday - do you use compression and gating as a matter of course on your dialog or only in special situations?

Do you have lav vs boom makes a difference?

Can you share your work flow?


Do you do anything along the lines of mastering at the end?

What about when combining the dialog with music?

[Big Andy]

There is always Compression used in Dialogue, this is a must. However, I will almost NEVER use a Gate on Dialogue. Using a Gate on Dialogue is risky business. You can accidently kill the subtle nuances in the Dialogue by using a Gate. Little breaths, intentional lip smacks, even the ends of words can be on the chopping block of a gate. Not to mention, it may piss off the Dialogue Editor who has spent way to much time work on making sure we can hear those little details, s/he deserves our care in mix.

I almost always prefer a boom vs. a lav. The Reason is that the boom captures the sound of the location, natural verb and occasionally really good Production FX. A Lav has a different sound (typically boomy) and will almost always have scratchy cloth sound in it. And heaven forbid the actors touch each other in any way ::BOOM, Fizz, crackle:::.

My workflow:
DX 1 > EQ > Comp (lightly working @ 2.5 > DX PRE 1 (this is a new pre dubbed track) > EQ > Freq Specific Gate or Noise Reduction > Other signal Processing (Exciter, Pitch, Creative EQ for example) > Comp (working a little harder with a larger ratio: Depends on the film) > DX STEM

No mastering, that would defeat the purpose of dynamic range for the entire film. I use two layers of Compression at different stages to give energy to the lines. EX: a whisper in one scene maybe louder than a battle shout in another, but we can hear them both well. Compression does this.

Occasionally music will change the amount and need of compression in a dialogue track, however you can make the two sit well together more with EQ or volume automation than just compression.

The trick of mixing film is to make Dialogue feel like there is a lot of dynamic while still being completely audible to everyone in the theater.

[sailor]

I always have compression on the dialog (individual tracks and/or the master dialog bus), but try not to hit it too hard. Lots of gain riding with the faders.

The general goal in dialog compression, at least for me, is to gracefully tame the loud stuff, rather than going for overall bigness or leveling+gain (as one might when using a compressor on a sung vocal). Natural is the word.

I'll add gain pre-compression if levels are too low rather than slapping a low-threshold, high makeup on the whole track; most dialog tracks are way too dynamic for an aggressive compressor setting to work well on all the widely varying audio clips.

No gates, but sometimes a multiband expander on a noisy recording.

Workflow for dialog mixing (and post generally) is a broad topic. It is, among other things, considerably more surgical than most music mixing.

[sailor]

Addendum....if you're RECORDING dialog, say ADR in your studio, then don't use compression. Or at the most, a "safety" comp/limiter right near the top to avoid clipping the ADC if you expect the talent to get loud.

[mikevarela]

I always defer to manual fader rides and automation BEFORE compression.

I do add compression, however it's usually on the Dx bus, and maybe per channel if need be.

If you can tackle it with automaton, try that first. it'll avoid pumping the noise floor. If can level the Dx that way, then a comp after that will help it all gel without unwanted automatic gain raising. Of course, make sure to high pass the Dx first to get rid of the low end material you don't need.

Dx > High Pass > Fader Automation > Dx Bus > Bus Comp

But that's just me. Each project is different, but usually I'll try it this way first.

Oh, and I never use a gate. It's too uncontrollable. I do however sometimes use a 4 band comp to tame or suppress noise when needed.

[Mike Caffrey]

Helpful had I been able to read it before the mix (I got asked to mix something today that was due this past Monday)


How do you deal with removing early reflections? There were scenes where the actor moved closer to a wall - or the boom operator dropped the ball. Most of the audio was good, but there was definitely some weird resonances.

Clearly it's an option to add a consistent short, subtle reverb to create a consistency, but I don't think that would have been right.

Is there anything to do or are you just stuck with certain moments when the audio isn't right?

In some cases I made some tight automation, but others it wasn't an option. I'd been thinking about a short early reflection type of delay with the FB out of phase, but there wasn't time to experiment.


Also, the editing was done in Avid and I was given an OMF. I had to have someone else open it with the Digi Translator.

When I got the files, they were all cut with the video, so that in some cases when the video cut form one actor to another, the top or tail of the audio was clipped and there was no extra region to draw back and forth. Does the editor need to do something special to prevent that or did something happen in the translation?

[mikevarela]

what you're talking about with the OMF are HANDLES. extra audio before and after each region. always ask for it, it's a menu option when the editor exports the OMF.

Also, though cleaning up the audio is what you're there for, the real world is messy and the listener knows this. don't err on the side of sterile dialogue, it'll detract from the film. always try and help the levels and transitions, and of course try and mitigate striking errors in recording, but don't clean everything up so it's robotic. also, use room tone and hard fx to help glaze over stuff.

reverb is hard to get rid of, almost impossible. the old mantra is 'crap in/crap out' - it's true. there's only so much you can do.

also, if you have no handles, it's your job to go and copy audio from empty sections to help transitions. you could also fudge room tone from recordings (your own sometimes) or ask the editor for the raw files and dig for replacements

[charles maynes]

I have to confess- I hate compressors on dialog- I really do, however sometimes you have to do it- usually because of time constraints- but I prefer having a limiter and a multiband expander to do that work (beyond EQ and filters.)

[Mike Caffrey]

This was for a job that was started 4 days after it was due, with a panicking client who called a couple of times an hour starting from before the scheduled start through the mix and then needed me to make multiple video outputs even though I only had the compressed video.

There wasn't much other than make sure that everything was intelligible and get it out the door.

I have no idea how they let it get to the point where the mix was begun 4 days after the deadline.

I think the next couple of days are going to be interesting.

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

I have no idea how they let it get to the point where the mix was begun 4 days after the deadline.

I think the next couple of days are going to be interesting.

Welcome to the wonderful world of TV! I've literally been handed 3 30minute animated shows a week before the bond was due and asked to have them out the door before the bond was called in!

The series my second is mixing the third episode of, as I write, was supposed to be completed at the end of June, and the other episodes are still being edited, never mind mixed.

Producers want to be seen to hit their deadline, ergo, we at the end of the chain get squashed. Fair...no... reality... yes... In many Producers eyes, "it's better to deliver crap on time, then great stuff late." (That's a direct quote from one I know...)

Oh... ON TOPIC... For TV I ofter use light compression on the DX bus, especially when trying to meet insane network QC specs. Like the others, I'll hit it as lightly as I can, using volume graphing to make things as even as possible inside time and budget. Gating, never... Multiband Expansion, sadly more often than I'd like.

[sailor]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

This was for a job that was started 4 days after it was due, with a panicking client who called a couple of times an hour starting from before the scheduled start through the mix and then needed me to make multiple video outputs even though I only had the compressed video.

There wasn't much other than make sure that everything was intelligible and get it out the door.

I have no idea how they let it get to the point where the mix was begun 4 days after the deadline.

I think the next couple of days are going to be interesting.

Welcome to the world of post!

Gracefully managing inherited emergencies -- made more complicated by poor planning -- is no small part of what we do.

The people in this room are helpful....don't hesitate to ask for suggestions.

[D'Animation]

Originally Posted by Sonsey@mac.com

Welcome to the wonderful world of TV! I've literally been handed 3 30minute animated shows a week before the bond was due and asked to have them out the door before the bond was called in!

Ah hell yeh - overseas animation studios screwing me at the moment - few weeks late with offline deliveries and yet our broadcaster delivery dates stay the same

As for dialog, pretty much the same as everyone - seperate tracks with specific Eq's, volume automation or clip-based gain (for overall moves) in to a dialog bus with de-essor, then overall EQ, then compressor hitting about ~2-3db and then a limiter after that which is basically in bypass and only gets used when stuff really really needs to cut.
I tend to mix my dialog quite high in relative terms and its pretty much always upfront - whenever theres dialog its always the loudest thing in the mix except during musical transtions or fx heavy action stuff. BTW, its all pre-school I do so dialog is KING and none of this applies to most other formats

Lav vs boom - I'll take a U87 or a Gefell M930 in a booth please, animation's kinda good like that!

Sometimes use light ducking on music tracks but generally only when things are very busy (or if I'm way too busy and up against bad time constraints), you can get a real tight m&e (when done in moderation) whilst keeping the energy up.

Never master the dialog but often have plugs doing similar jobs over music and fx stems

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Sonsey@mac.com

Welcome to the wonderful world of TV! I've literally been handed 3 30minute animated shows a week before the bond was due and asked to have them out the door before the bond was called in!

The series my second is mixing the third episode of, as I write, was supposed to be completed at the end of June, and the other episodes are still being edited, never mind mixed.

Producers want to be seen to hit their deadline, ergo, we at the end of the chain get squashed. Fair...no... reality... yes... In many Producers eyes, "it's better to deliver crap on time, then great stuff late." (That's a direct quote from one I know...)

Oh... ON TOPIC... For TV I ofter use light compression on the DX bus, especially when trying to meet insane network QC specs. Like the others, I'll hit it as lightly as I can, using volume graphing to make things as even as possible inside time and budget. Gating, never... Multiband Expansion, sadly more often than I'd like.

What are you using for a multiband expander?

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

What are you using for a multiband expander?

I normally use the Waves C4, although I also have the WaveArts MD5. I find the WA more "grabby", but once in a while I need the extra two bands for something.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by mikevarela

I always defer to manual fader rides and automation BEFORE compression.

Please explain! You're saying you make moves on all your tracks before hitting your DIA master compressor??? Wow, talk about a make-work project!



Or are you meaning you'd rather make volume adjustments before doing things like adjusting threshold/gain on individual lines/parts of lines? (ie: yells)

Me: compression saves my butt--and a good chunk of my day time-wise.


Mike----as for the 'closer to a wall' sound, etc. I love that naturalness. I had to try to duplicate it for ADR just recently because the sound was just too noisy so I brought a door in from foley and had it placed next to the actor as in the scene. Granted, it was one of those 'talking in front of a door to someone on the other side' things and then the character leans hands against the door and kind of puts head down.

But again as for 'naturalness'-- Saving Private Ryan--Tom Hanks turns mid-speech to address someone beside him, goes completely off-mic. Left as is. Loved it.

(shrug)


plus I'm recently a big fan of the C4.

Jeff

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by Sonsey@mac.com

Like the others, I'll hit it as lightly as I can, using volume graphing to make things as even as possible inside time and budget. Gating, never... Multiband Expansion, sadly more often than I'd like.

Man... you guys like to spend time on things that 'God' created technology for!

(specifically the comment about using volume graphing / riding faders)

But, yes, I would really like to just watch the Pro Tools Mix Window faders on my DIA tracks on a given show---I use compression but there are always an insane amount of moves BECAUSE I use a mouse and keyboard and not a control surface and I'm very often my own DIA editor and I'm not riding faders to mix, I'm touching plastic keys.

As for Gating, Howard... haha, I just started a student project on Friday. I should send you a clip...



These kids... they gotta learn somewhere, right? But I'm certainly not going to spend time trying to noise reduce stuff that was just recorded badly and inconsistently on something with this budget.

Gate all the way! Covered by well-matched room tones and BGs and foley, Bob's yer uncle.

What? You want to hear their breathing and subtle stuff between lines? Sorry kid... hahaha. Better luck next time

Of course on a show with a budget and time I do my best.
Jeff

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Hey Jeff,

Well whatever produces the best result inside time and budget!

If gating works for you, then gate away... Just saying it doesn't work for me!

On the other hand, my C4 get's one hell of a workout on the latest show, along with a TON of rides (like you, no faders), since at any moment, one character can be whispering, while another yells, while a third talks in a normal voice! If I JUST used compression on that, it would sound horrible.

But they do actually give me a very reasonable time frame to get it done... Oh ya - director HATES compression, and is very attuned to it, so if those compressors start hitting audibly... Back to square one!

[Jfriah]

Oh, brother, this is the second time EVER I've had gates on tracks for the entire show. I've gated a few more things (less than 10 probably) in the past but only the second time I've actually mixed with them in because... I've... had to in this particular STUDENT production.

That said, still in the middle so we'll see what the end of the project results in.

[mikevarela]

Gotta go with Sonsey on that one. I usually prefer to manually ride my Dx tracks to level them out (manual compression), get them in ball park, similar db level (ears) and then often print. I'll use a slight compression on the bus sometimes to get more similarity in level, but usually my fader automation is enough to bring it home. I feel like riding this way is more granular, natural and best of all 'works for me'.

I use compression on VO, but production can get out of hand with a hard compressor.... lot's of constant wind/tone/drone background stuff can start to rear (pump) it's head with a set it mentality. That's why there's a fader!

I get your point though... budget determines approach. Low paying clients will often get a basic leveling with a comp and some room tone built for crossfades, but beyond that it's hours of my time for no pay and my wife would kill me.

[Mike Caffrey]

Well, it turns out they sent out my 640x??? bounce out of ProTools to all the theaters that are showing it.

For once, the audio has gotten more care than the visual!

[Henchman]

I don't use compressors on individual tracks.
Fader rides and a compressor in the main dialog buss for me.

Mark

[Smallbudgetguru]

Same as Mark here. Digi or Waves compressor on DX aux (post EQ) to control things lightly and overall slight boost in gain. Then I ride faders to make things sit right.