The Sound Toronto has to offer right now...

[Sludge_Roach]

If you're around the city grab your recorder and go build your library. Police cars on fire, Smashing windows of businesses, Riot police marching, tear gas, sound cannons, giant protesting groups... This stuff is gold =)

Though if you're bringing your boom, you may get arrested or have it taken from you.

[tilman]

Originally Posted by Sludge_Roach

If you're around the city grab your recorder and go build your library. Police cars on fire, Smashing windows of businesses, Riot police marching, tear gas, sound cannons, giant protesting groups... This stuff is gold =)

Though if you're bringing your boom, you may get arrested or have it taken from you.

you just lost touch with reality here.

I think this is a dangerous thing for Sound Designers or people who make
fiction feel as if it where real. Could be an interesting and important topic.

Ethics of beeing a sound recordist....

[Sludge_Roach]

Originally Posted by tilman

you just lost touch with reality here.

I think this is a dangerous thing for Sound Designers or people who make
fiction feel as if it where real. Could be an interesting and important topic.

Ethics of beeing a sound recordist....

fuuck

[tilman]

[cl516]

i'm staying as far away as possible. i bet even if i brought a recorder down, it'd just be a lot of repetitive recordings of noisy people ambience. outdoors, bicycles, protesting, raising awareness - certainly sounds like a major attraction for certain types of people. definitely not my cup of tea.

[tilman]

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by cl516

i'm staying as far away as possible. i bet even if i brought a recorder down, it'd just be a lot of repetitive recordings of noisy people ambience. outdoors, bicycles, protesting, raising awareness - certainly sounds like a major attraction for certain types of people. definitely not my cup of tea.

Same here - really wanted to take in some Jazz fest shows, and the gigs I had in city took everything I could muster (keeping account with my own current health issues).

Can't wait for those fukwads to disappear, and things blow back down to a sense of normalcy...

[charles maynes]

protests and demonstrations are great things to record- you are for one, getting totally amazing, unreproduceable crowd situations, and 2, you are documenting history. I you have a 2nd or third story perch above that scene, it would make for amazing material. Whether or not you agree with the protesters is somewhat irrelevent, but staying out of harms way is worth thinking about.

[tilman]

@charles: not to misunderstand you... two questions:

"getting totally amazing, unreproduceable crowd situations" for what sort of project?

EDIT:

Whether or not you agree with the protesters is somewhat irrelevent

why?




sorry but... maybe I do not get it...
first of all the title of this thread + calling these sounds "gold" is so wrong to me.
isn´t this sort of unethical. For me this is completly wrong.

Imagine someone gets harmed or killed or whtever. you do not even
notice it but think you have recorded cool sounds...
.... I don´t know...

and then use the screams and such for your next movie.... just to add that touch of authenticity. Maybe it is a complete fiction movie with creatures and such. For me this is pervert...

If you do a documentary or a form of critical art project that deals with what is actualy happening there ... yes, thats fine!
but fiction is fiction to me and has to be created...


what´s next ?

...going to places where people suffer from earthquakes and
say: " hey I got some amazing material " just to add for that extra
something?!

....beating up an actor during adr session?!

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by tilman

@charles: not to misunderstand you:

"getting totally amazing, unreproduceable crowd situations" for what sort of project?




sorry but... maybe I do not get it...
first of all the title of this thread + calling these sounds "gold" is so wrong to me.
isn´t this sort of unethical. For me this is completly wrong.

Imagine someone gets harmed or killed or whtever. you do not even
notice it but think you have recorded cool sounds...
.... I don´t know...

and then use the screams and such for your next movie.... just to add that touch of authenticity. Maybe it is a complete fiction movie with creatures and such. For me this is pervert...

If you do a documentary or a form of critical art project that deals with what is actualy happening there ... yes, thats fine!
but fiction is fiction to me and has to be created...


what´s next ?

...going to places where people suffer from earthquakes and
say: " hey I got some amazing material " just to add for that extra
something?!

....beating up an actor during adr session?!

Documenting reality has its own value- the BBC sound library has the actual sounds of WW2 battles as well, they also recorded street violence during the Irish troubles....- there is no moral relativity to the endeavor- you are recording history. If it can be used creatively, its an added benefit- You also are not creating the event, you are simply taking an aural photograph of it.

I am sure those recordings could have been put to good use in film like this though....

Battle in Seattle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

at any rate, are we then going to disallow documentary footage to be used by other fictional story-tellers? It seems a whole lot of films would have been effected if such a mentality was common.

[Sludge_Roach]

I guess it depends on your own personal morals, but please don't push them onto anyone else.

I wasn't thinking of people being killed, but yes, crowds screaming/chanting/yelling, sirons blairing, police marching, vandalism and destruction... Great material.

I would think that documenting sounds where earthquakes and floods have occured would also be ok. But obviously I would never beat up an actor doing ADR... that's for the foley pit.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by tilman

@charles: not to misunderstand you... two questions:


what´s next ?

...going to places where people suffer from earthquakes and
say: " hey I got some amazing material " just to add for that extra
something?!

....beating up an actor during adr session?!

been there and done the disaster scenes. they happen- I have also done the tornado thing. none of those things were caused by my presence, but I actually wanted to record the reality of the events. I also live in Los Angeles and was in the middle of the Loma Prieta Earthquake which hit San Francisco- I didnt have a recorder at the time, but had I, I definitely would have been rolling tape.

these events are not something that is planned, and to compare it to intentionally injuring or damaging people or any living thing is insulting to the soul.

[tilman]

Originally Posted by Sludge_Roach

I would think that documenting sounds where earthquakes and floods have occured would also be ok.

......(thinking)
yes but using them for a sci fi or plain action movie?

I am sure those recordings could have been put to good use in film like this though....

Battle in Seattle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

interesting topic... for me this is not clear. I have to think more
about that.

Anyway I got strong feelings about this first post. Maybe a bit to strong....
if so ...sorry for that!

but this remains an interesting topic.
it´s time to go to sleep now....

cheers tilman

[Enos]

I must agree with Charles here! The rioting, earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes are not created nor being affected in any way by the sound recordist here! It is indeed, as Charles Maynes mentioned, an aural capture of history. Is it wrong for photographers or reporters with video cameras to be in a riot zone or war zone? Ofcourse not? Is it wrong using that footage for a sci-fi or "plain action movie"? I personally don't feel that way. Even less with sound! And most of the time it is not actually people being killed that happens but mere human or natural violence. Will I be enjoying the fact that other people or property are being hurt and destroyed? NO! But taking pictures and recording sound can hardly affect the happenings and will be a historical imprint of the occurence!

I was recently returning from a day of fishing when we ran into forest fires so close that the fires arrived as close sa the road! So I stopped and recorded the fires for a few minutes. Was that wrong? I doubt so...and trying to stop the fire would not have been the right decision either as it could have put me in danger as well as other professionals who might have had to come to the rescue!


Anyways..

[rhizomeman]

Originally Posted by Sludge_Roach

If you're around the city grab your recorder and go build your library. Police cars on fire, Smashing windows of businesses, Riot police marching, tear gas, sound cannons, giant protesting groups... This stuff is gold =).

thumbsup - finally a guy on here with some F**king balls! You and I think alike my friend

[ggegan]

This is not a moral issue in any way shape or form. This is what we do, capture reality and unreality in audio.

Charles is totally right. There is nothing like the real thing when it comes to believable crowds, especially violent ones. Walla groups and CD libraries just aren't going to cut it.

And yes, it is documenting history. Was recording a Stuka dive bomber immoral, just because it was a tool of **** terror? How about recording the sound of an atomic bomb explosion? If they hadn't been recorded, there would have been no audio record, and historical films would not have realistic sound. As it is, those sounds are so old that they are barely usable anymore.

This is an great opportunity that rarely comes along anymore in North America. Even if you don't currently have a project that requires riot sound effects, this would be a great sound trading card to bargain with when you need to acquire something from someone else's library.

[PlugHead]

All true, but you guys ever fear of getting your gear stole away from menacing thug cops itchy to bust yer chops and care less to wait for you to file a law-suit against them - maybe they'll go easy on you 'cos you're press, or IN DA MOVIES?

Those **** fuks in stormtrooper costumes are NOT FOR THE SET - they are ready to bust your chops and destroy your gear - NO IATSE WALK THRU's.

I for one was not ready to lose a few G's from them stealing my pole and rig, NOR am I in the mood to have some brazen drunk fools taunting them to solicit their unwieldly armour reigning down on my skull, cans, tools and whatnot.

I'll stick to where I know I can walk freely with my gear - usually out in the woods, or on a secure set...

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by rhizomeman

thumbsup - finally a guy on here with some F**king balls! You and I think alike my friend

C'mon and bring yer gunz up too - you'll fit right in with them, pardner!!!

[ben_allison]

Sound cannon = goodbye mixing career.

I'll hang out uptown, thanks.

[Jfriah]

If I were there, I'd be recording.
If I were there, I'd probably already have been in lockup.

And you guys will LOOOOOOVE this.

Lockup, you say Jeff? Why WHERE would that lockup be?

It would be soooo poetic. So, too, is the posting from the hollywood reporter

The detention centre


And I won't get political or moral here.
If it were a poll, I'd have to answer "would be recording"

And, yes, I have been pepper sprayed during a riot while taking photos comfortably escorted by two officers. It turned ugly, I was in the wrong place and the right time apparently. Spent the night in jail and they didn't take my film. It made the University front page news story the following issue.

Jeff

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

All true, but you guys ever fear of getting your gear stole away from menacing thug cops itchy to bust yer chops and care less to wait for you to file a law-suit against them - maybe they'll go easy on you 'cos you're press, or IN DA MOVIES?

Those **** fuks in stormtrooper costumes are NOT FOR THE SET - they are ready to bust your chops and destroy your gear - NO IATSE WALK THRU's.

I for one was not ready to lose a few G's from them stealing my pole and rig, NOR am I in the mood to have some brazen drunk fools taunting them to solicit their unwieldly armour reigning down on my skull, cans, tools and whatnot.

I'll stick to where I know I can walk freely with my gear - usually out in the woods, or on a secure set...

Reminds me of the time many years ago (when I was young and foolish) I was recording at some of the Angeles National Forest gun ranges. It was just me and my Nagra, no armorers or anything. I had recorded some camouflage wearing survivalist type guys with tripod mounted weapons and Dirty Harry handguns, and some suburban teenagers with Uzis, but the scariest part was when i came upon some homies who were trying out their newly modified fully automatic assault weapons. They were very friendly and really enthusiastic to demonstrate their guns, but I knew it was time to get the hell out of there when one of them told a junior gang member to climb up the hill and put up a new target. When the kid got up to the target, the guy with the gun whispered to me, "Watch this, I'm gonna make him shit his pants." and started spraying bullets all around the kid. As I beat a hasty retreat from the range I saw a cop car parked at the entrance, pulled up, rolled down my window and told him what was going on and suggested he go check it out. The cop just laughed at me.

[minor_glitch]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

Sound cannon = goodbye mixing career.

I'll hang out uptown, thanks.

Good call. Sitting in front of the tv with a beer up here in north york is close enough for me!

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by minor_glitch

Good call. Sitting in front of the tv with a beer up here in north york is close enough for me!

Especially since these sorts of protests just polarize the authorities against you and your cause, and just ensure that next year, the bats are bigger, and that you will most certainly get the shit kicked out of you that much harder.

[PlugHead]

Ahh. Heroes.

They can get out and catch all the glory - being able to breathe and wake and see my kids everyday is worth more to me.

To each their own...

[sonnykeyes]

I do live in Toronto, but I'm glad I stayed away - for one thing, by Sunday they ended up arresting almost everybody, including journalists, and for another thing it was dumping rain, which IMO would compromise the quality of the recorded product, as well as the equipment itself.

Having said that, if I were younger I might have tried (and possibly regretted) to get in there - I agree that recording unreproduceable history doesn't actually collude with the violent participants, and like most Torontonians, I wouldn't expect any kind of protest violence to result in deaths, as indeed it didn't.

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

[rhumphries]

I live in DC, and these types of opportunities happen fairly often. For the types of projects I work on, the recordings I've made at some of them have been extremely valuable to me. I have gotten a lot of mileage out of recordings of crowds chanting and yelling, helicopters hovering, police radios, groups of sirens, etc.

I have a few different recording rigs that I use, so if I were to expect things to get out of hand I'd probably just bring my more disposable setup (like for an IMF meeting vs. your run of the mill march on Washington). Though now that I'm older and have children I'm a little less enthusiastic about getting teargassed, clubbed or arrested, and sound-cannons sound like something to be avoided at all costs--I'm glad I haven't come across any of those.

I'm curious about Tilman's question of the morality. I don't really see the recording of a protest or riot any differently than I do the recording of an ocean wave or the walla of a crowd in a museum; It's something that is happening around me that, if I'm lucky enough, I can capture.

And why must fiction be created 100% from scratch? Shouldn't we be using sounds based on the character/emotion that they add to the scene and not the history or the origin of the sound? Likewise, must non-fiction be 100% real?


-R

[tilman]

Originally Posted by rhumphries

I'm curious about Tilman's question of the morality. I don't really see the recording of a protest or riot any differently than I do the recording of an ocean wave or the walla of a crowd in a museum; It's something that is happening around me that, if I'm lucky enough, I can capture.

And why must fiction be created 100% from scratch? Shouldn't we be using sounds based on the character/emotion that they add to the scene and not the history or the origin of the sound? Likewise, must non-fiction be 100% real?


-R

Good Point .. Thanks!

I still have mixed feelings about this. For me it differs when humans or certain animals are involved. And it would depend on the kind of project you would use these sounds for.

Originally Posted by rhumphries

Likewise, must non-fiction be 100% real? -R

shure not! and it is impossible!

Originally Posted by rhumphries

And why must fiction be created 100% from scratch?
Shouldn't we be using sounds based on the character/emotion that they add to the scene and not the history or the origin of the sound?-R

yes, but certain ethics do not allow me to use all the sounds that would be available. I think this is an interesting topic. where do you draw the line.

So If I would go to a danger zone where people are hurt and record sound fx
and these sound fx make it into a popcorn movie I think it is wrong.

I think such recordings have to be treated with respect. which for me means not beeing part of a popcorn movie.

For such movies violance ageinst humans or certain animals has to be
recreated otherwhise I would not enjoy these movies anymore...





Anyway I still have a problem with calling sounds, where violance ageinst humans is involved, gold.

cheers tilman

[tilman]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

these events are not something that is planned, and to compare it to intentionally injuring or damaging people or any living thing is insulting to the soul.

but if you plan a recording in such an area (Riot / Earthquake / Thunderstorm) to get "totally amazing, unreproduceable crowd situations",
for your upcoming movie projects...

And these crowds you get there are people who are screaming for real
isn´t that a bit insulting too?
but maybe that is not what you ment....



I am just asking...

[BeK$]

I hate the sound of free healthcare

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by tilman

And these crowds you get there are people who are screaming for real
isn´t that a bit insulting too?
but maybe that is not what you ment....

Why would you have sympathy for people who know, before hand what they're in for? It's like blaming the snowblower for you losing a hand, when you knew before hand that sticking said hand in snowblower would probably not end well.

If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

Originally Posted by BeK$

I hate the sound of free healthcare

It doesn't suck when you need a triple bypass or something as simple/common as having to give birth.

I have friends in the US that have had to pay $10,000+, even with medical insurance.

Here, you just get to go home with a baby... not bills.

(Of course you might have meant that facetiously, in which case, lulz).