Icon Reliability

[matt82aust]

Hi all. The last 8 months I have been lucky enough to be working in some very nice facilities, all fitted with no expense spared, and equipped with either D-Command or D-Control Icons. As we all know, these units are not cheap (depending how you look at it), though practically everyone I have used has had various issues... Be it faders that don't quite respond to touch, or LED's that are out on the main board. In fact, the only one that didnt have any issues apparently has had all the faders replaced.

This is both original and ES versions.

Generally, do people have reliability issues? These desks are amazing to work with, but for the price I would expect a solid, reliable product?

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by matt82aust

Hi all. The last 8 months I have been lucky enough to be working in some very nice facilities, all fitted with no expense spared, and equipped with either D-Command or D-Control Icons. As we all know, these units are not cheap (depending how you look at it), though practically everyone I have used has had various issues... Be it faders that don't quite respond to touch, or LED's that are out on the main board. In fact, the only one that didnt have any issues apparently has had all the faders replaced.

This is both original and ES versions.

Generally, do people have reliability issues? These desks are amazing to work with, but for the price I would expect a solid, reliable product?

I haven't seen many issues at all. Certainly not more than conventional consoles have.

Regarding faders not responding to touch, this has been an issue for some people ever since moving faders were introduced, long before the ICON came along. I think it has to do with the dryness and chemical properties of certain people's hand skin. Sometimes recalibrating the faders works, but I often have to ground myself to some metal in order to get faders to respond. On my personal D-Command system I just take off my shoes and socks and rest my feet on a metal crosspiece of the console stand. Moistening my hands with a non-greasy lotion also works. Years ago I heard about a mixer who wore an ankle strap with a grounding wire attached, but that is a bit too much like being chained to the console for my taste.

[Rick Sanchez]

Originally Posted by matt82aust

all fitted with no expense spared, and equipped with either D-Command or D-Control Icons. As we all know, these units are not cheap (depending how you look at it), but for the price I would expect a solid, reliable product?

These consoles are very cheap compared to a Neve, SSL, Harrison or high end Euphonix consoles. Yes, they do feel somewhat toy like, but you get a heck of a lot of bang for the buck with them. Many large post facilities are using them day in and day out with acceptable downtime. Until clients decide they want to start paying real rates for audio services, which includes full time tech staffing again, they will get what makes economic sense.

Anytime you have moving faders, there will be mechanical issues, no matter what price point and once you are running at that level, you are going to need to have the cashflow to either have a full time tech or have clients patient enough to wait for one to have the time and drive across town to fix it.

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by Rick Sanchez

These consoles are very cheap compared to a Neve, SSL, Harrison or high end Euphonix consoles. Yes, they do feel somewhat toy like, but you get a heck of a lot of bang for the buck with them. Many large post facilities are using them day in and day out with acceptable downtime. Until clients decide they want to start paying real rates for audio services, which includes full time tech staffing again, they will get what makes economic sense.

I have worked for many years on those expensive high end conventional film consoles and if given the choice I will choose to mix on a D-Control or even a D-Command every time. ICONs don't feel toy-like to me at all. Actually a big D-Control powered by 3 HD6's, a full complement of plugins and all the I/O required is pretty expensive. It is less than a DFC with a similar amount of DSP, but not exactly cheap.

I don't see any down side to ICONs and a whole lot of up sides. Wait, I take that back, the down side is that now that the ICON is getting installed on more large dub stages, sound editors are deciding to mix their own projects, which increases the amount of competition in the mixing arena, but then I'm editing a lot more now, so I guess fair is fair.

[Henchman]

I'm with Gary. I've seem very few issues using Icons. Wether it be a D-Command or Control.
I would also like to ad, a good editor does not necessarily a good mixer make.

[Jfriah]

Mark, are you typing on something with predictive text?


I just find this thread so far to be informational. And interesting hearing that some would choose 'the more pro tools-interactive' units.

Jeff

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Mark, are you typing on something with predictive text?


Jeff

Yes, my phone :-)

[Jfriah]

Awwww, did you edit your post?
I loved the part about "sigh"

Damn phones

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Yes, my phone :-)

I was gonna say, i want some of what you're taking.

Just kidding, Mark. I figured it was a text message or something.

[nucelar]

we have a d-command for about 5 years. It has had several issues. Once, a group of 8 faders died (logic board). Then the master peak-meters randomly stopped working and finally the "fighting faders" issue. We got a replacement fader kit and replaced them in-house. Now it seems like it's working fine, but they have their character.

[D'Animation]

18 months and not a hitch with our D-Command, now if only they could refine ProTools itself...

These consoles are very cheap compared to a Neve, SSL, Harrison or high end Euphonix consoles. Yes, they do feel somewhat toy like, but you get a heck of a lot of bang for the buck with them. Many large post facilities are using them day in and day out with acceptable downtime. Until clients decide they want to start paying real rates for audio services, which includes full time tech staffing again, they will get what makes economic sense.

A bit harsh and ever so slightly extreme? ICON's the perfect match for the way we work. Never used any of the big names myself but I sat in on a SSL equipped mix and 2 separate channels died mid-session? These things do happen....

[matt82aust]

Good to hear the general consensus is positive! While I imagine and realise all systems have their issues, I was worried that the icons were a little less robust than what you would expect.

They truly are fantastic workflow enhancers though!

[soundfx]

My old Pro-control faders died one at a time over the years. After going to D-Command, no issues. That said, I don't ever touch the faders anyway, but they look really cool moving around by themselves. I guess if you're in a room with 100+ faders and are mixing a HUGE project, faders are more useful. I do everything with the mouse anyway. Surprised faders are still so in use for film since mouse-mixing seems so much more useful to me at least...what with all the individual regions needing very specific volume automation.

[Henchman]

No way I would want to mix with a mouse.

[ggegan]

I've gotta have faders to do my best work. I flow with the drama on the screen and my fingers take care of the level. Most of the time I'm not even thinking about them, they just do what they are supposed to. For me there are some tasks that are very efficient to do with a mouse, but not the feel related stuff.

[soundfx]

I guess I just mix in too small of increments. Maybe its just twelve years of mouse-mixing. Can't imagine needing faders for anything. Seems cumbersome, for my projects at least. Maybe I'm new-school still. The mouse is far faster and more accurate for me anyway.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by soundfx

I guess I just mix in too small of increments. Maybe its just twelve years of mouse-mixing. Can't imagine needing faders for anything. Seems cumbersome, for my projects at least. Maybe I'm new-school still. The mouse is far faster and more accurate for me anyway.

So, how would you ride the level down of say a music cue while simultaneously riding the reverb send up of the same cue using a mouse?

[Rob King]

Originally Posted by Henchman

So, how would you ride the level down of say a music cue while simultaneously riding the reverb send up of the same cue using a mouse?

+1

I still do a lot of mouse mixing but faders are ESSENTIAL for certain aspects of mixing. Close to the end of a mix session the whole Board is in Touch mode and I tweak the "sound" not the fader graph.

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

The key is to have both: faders (and knobs) and mouse.

While it is much faster and effective to mix with knobs and faders, you can do some automation "surgery" by a couple mouse clicks.

As for ICON, IMHO it is great device.

regards,
Kuba

[soundfx]

Originally Posted by Henchman

So, how would you ride the level down of say a music cue while simultaneously riding the reverb send up of the same cue using a mouse?

I guess my answer would be..."why do you have to do them simultaneously and in real-time?" If you wanted to do that, you would have already watched the scene to see that it is necessary, so for me, it would be much faster to automate that in about 10 seconds of mouse work than to watch the scene again in real time AND do the moves in real-time. With the mouse, I could sit back and watch the scene with automation without being distracted..then tweak if necessary. Again, not totally decrying faders altogether, just saying there are other ways to work as well.

[Justas]

Originally Posted by soundfx

I guess my answer would be..."why do you have to do them simultaneously and in real-time?" If you wanted to do that, you would have already watched the scene to see that it is necessary, so for me, it would be much faster to automate that in about 10 seconds of mouse work than to watch the scene again in real time AND do the moves in real-time. With the mouse, I could sit back and watch the scene with automation without being distracted..then tweak if necessary. Again, not totally decrying faders altogether, just saying there are other ways to work as well.

Wow! If my good old teacher in film school would hear you there would be serious spanking involved right now!!!
Talking serioulsy, general consensus (and experience) is that, although "micro-mixing" provides excellent tools in refining touches here and there, working with the flow of the image and storytelling, letting your fingers to move in syncro with it, is important in order to achieve emotional empathy with what you are trying to express. After all, we are all artist here (or at least is what I try to convince myself from time to time...).
Working with just the mouse is more associated with commercials and short stuff, but hey, if it works for you and clients are happy...

[JoeMilner]

Quote: I guess my answer would be..."why do you have to do them simultaneously and in real-time?"

The answer to THAT is, "Because the director asked me to"

In addition, One common complaint clients have about non-realtime, mouse mixing is that it takes them out of the process.

Best,

Joe

[Henchman]

Yeah, I wouldn't work much if I dis everything with a mouse.
And I couldn't see myself getting through longform in the time given mixing with a mouse either.

[nathand]

Just to put things into perspective and come to soundfx's defense, a little...

Promos have their own set of challenges. First and foremost is completing a mammoth amount of spots by end of day. I'm sure it's not uncommon for soundfx to mix more than 50 spots a day. With that kind of volume, art / automating reverb sends, is way down the list of priority.

Clients are concerned with your ability to get the right words on the right spot and FAST! They can care less how you duck the music. Not to mention, I'm sure he works almost exclusively unattended so nobody can see how the magic happens anyway.

I guess my point there is no right way to do everything.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by nathand

Just to put things into perspective and come to soundfx's defense, a little...

Promos have their own set of challenges. First and foremost is completing a mammoth amount of spots by end of day. I'm sure it's not uncommon for soundfx to mix more than 50 spots a day. With that kind of volume, art / automating reverb sends, is way down the list of priority.

Clients are concerned with your ability to get the right words on the right spot and FAST! They can care less how you duck the music. Not to mention, I'm sure he works almost exclusively unattended so nobody can see how the magic happens anyway.

I guess my point there is no right way to do everything.

Well, let's look at that scenario.
Mixing 50 15 sec promos is under 15 minutes of program materia in a day.
That's pretty generous.
Try getting through 40 minutes of badly recorded dialog, and about 150 tracks of sfx in a day.
Mousemixing simply wouldn't be efficient.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by soundfx

I guess my answer would be..."why do you have to do them simultaneously and in real-time?" If you wanted to do that, you would have already watched the scene to see that it is necessary, so for me, it would be much faster to automate that in about 10 seconds of mouse work than to watch the scene again in real time AND do the moves in real-time. With the mouse, I could sit back and watch the scene with automation without being distracted..then tweak if necessary. Again, not totally decrying faders altogether, just saying there are other ways to work as well.

The thing I've noticed about the mixes I've done on faders/consoles/control surfaces is that they all feel more dynamic.

When you are mousing it, you are really paying attention to the numbers. You set your levels, level changes and fade up/fade downs with the transport stopped. Then you play the section to audition your drawings (this is how I got the nickname etch-a-sketch, btw! LOL).

When you are riding it with faders, you are adjusting the levels using your ears as the material plays. I've compared what I did with a mouse to what I did with faders before and wow, what a huge difference in the automation (and ultimately the sound!).

I noticed I did a lot more subtle moves with the faders that I just wouldn't bother to do with a mouse. A lot of little push/pulls on the fader to help things pop out or drop behind other sounds happening. With a mouse you are kind of just drawing triangles and steps in the automation. Then when you audition you are almost always going to have to tweak it or settle for it sounding "ok". Using a fader you can hear where it is as you move it. So you can tell within a 10th of a second if your in the sweet spot or your are over/under it and adjust. Then you can use the write commands to fill back to the start of the scene without ever really having to go back and listen to. The other thing you lose when stopping and starting to draw in automation is continuity. If you are mixing in "blocks". Where you draw in 30 seconds worth of automation across all your tracks, then listen. then stop. draw in the next 30 seconds then listen, etc... you lose the flow and continuity of the audio. Playing it and realtime and making most of the adjustments on the fly you keep that sense of continuity and it helps the film flow.

For me, and I had been mousing it for a while (5 or 6 years straight) there is no substitute for faders. At least for me, faders are a much more "right brained" creative activity. Using a mouse is much more of a "left brain" or analytical activity. I stop thinking about what the level is or how much of a level change I am making, and i just move the faders until it sounds good.

I'd say the first project I mixed with faders I was a little slower than with a mouse. But after that it nearly cut my mixing time in half. Now, I would rather use a command8 than mix with a mouse! But I'll still mouse it when I have to.

To each their own. Everyone is different. But if you haven't tried working with faders yet... you really should. Try mixing two or three shows on some sort of console/control surface and then see what you think. You may end up liking it after all! :-)

[nathand]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Well, let's look at that scenario.
Mixing 50 15 sec promos is under 15 minutes of program materia in a day.
That's pretty generous.
Try getting through 40 minutes of badly recorded dialog, and about 150 tracks of sfx in a day.
Mousemixing simply wouldn't be efficient.

Sure, but you're missing a few things:

First of all there are 30's, 15's, 10's and 5's. You need to record for all spots and record all tags. You need to re-record everything an hour later because somebody forgot about something. Now re-edit everything you had just done. You need to load in OMF's for everything. You need to do it again when picture changed, but only on the 10's. You need to get the SFX for the spot that was mixed last year some time. Nobody has a date or titled for that spot just, "you remeber the sound we had in the one promo we did..."

All said and done, in reality you have about 10 minutes to mix a spot. I'm sure you could still do it faster with faders but perhaps soundfx can do it faster with the mouse...whatever works, just get it out the door.